Psyched For Business Podcast Episode 4
Episode 4:
Awareness and Management of Stress in the Workplace
In this podcast episode Richard Anderson is joined by Kristian Lees Bell.
Kristian is a Business Psychologist, who is an expert in stress management.
In this episode, we cover:
✅ What stress is
✅ The reasons we experience it
✅ Top tips for managing stress in the workplace and beyond
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Episode 04 - Transcript:
Voiceover (00:00):
Welcome to Psyched For Business, helping business leaders understand and apply Cutting edge business psychology principles in the workplace.
Richard Anderson (00:11):
Hi, and welcome to Psyched for Business. I'm Richard Anderson, and in today's episode I'm talking to Kristian Lees Bell. Kristian is a business psychologist who's an expert in stress management. In this episode, we get into the ins and outs of what stress is, why it happens, and what are the best tips and tricks to mitigate stress in and out of the workplace. Thanks for listening.
Kristian, welcome to the show. I'm absolutely delighted to have you on. How are you doing?
Kristian Lees Bell (00:36):
Yeah, really well, thanks, Richard. Yeah, glad to be on the show as well.
Richard Anderson (00:40):
Your time's greatly appreciated. We're gonna talk about a very interesting subject. So you're obviously, Kristian, a business psychologist. You specialize in stress management and mental fitness. We're gonna get into the ins and outs of stress, stress in the workplace, how we go about mitigating, reducing, becoming aware of stress. And I think probably a good question to start with is when I think of stress, I think maybe somebody who's maybe struggling to sleep at night, maybe can't get to sleep because they've got so much on their mind. Maybe they, they've become irate maybe a little bit distant from, from people. But I guess there's a number of physical and mental manifestations that occur with stress. I mean, what, what would you say are the typical ones and what are the telltale signs to maybe look out for with somebody who, who has stress or is suffering with, with excess stress?
Kristian Lees Bell (01:24):
It's difficult actually to talk about what effects there on or what effects and not related to stress because as we'll talk about probably a little bit later there are just so many, you know, physical symptoms and indicators when you are struggling with stress. We all experience stress from, from time to time. You'll be aware of, Richard of that sort of that phrase, the fight or flight response that stress can have its upsides, it can mobilize our energy and our resources and get us ready to be prepared for certain things and stresses or things that could potentially be challenging to us. The problem comes when we feel unable to deal with those, or as I say, the sort of our abilities. Our resources just don't match up to the challenge. And so what we have, what we see then is, you know, sometimes symptoms that can be physical.
So I suppose the most obvious what one of the few, the obvious symptoms linked to stress and we call that comorbidities. So when we've got physical symptoms that coexist and coincide with and interact actually with stress. So that could be for example, headaches, tension headaches, things or existing conditions like asthma, skin conditions that you'll be aware of that will actually be made worse or can be exacerbated by the high level of stress. So physical symptoms, there are lots and lots of those. So for example, if you've got IBS then people will find that their IBS symptoms are made worse by, if they're, you know, undergoing quite a lot of stress at the time. We can also think about, I suppose mental and cognitive impacts of stress. So for example, you're thinking often is not as clear. When we're stressed we panic. So we have, we are probably probably more worried.
We ask ourselves in our head the questions about, okay, you know, what am I gonna do? We might sort of visualize in the future about things that could go wrong. So that stress kind of starts that sort of worry and anxiety sort of from getting going basically. So it's the precursor of a lot of that. You're talking about the anxiety sometimes that actually might stop you sleeping. There's definitely worry there as well. And also behavioral things. Maybe you find yourself doing certain habits, drinking too much or relying on certain medications or just certain bad habits that you have. And you might find that you do those things more often when you're stressed you might rely on them too much. We saw that over, for example, lockdown where people who had a bit of a habit of you know, drinking too much or smoking too much or overeating and I'm probably, you know, a victim of that as much, probably for a period of time doing more of that because I suppose my brain saw a chocolate bar as a, as a bit comfort thing.
Richard Anderson (03:59):
It's pretty much unique to each one of us. We all, we all maybe do different things and challenges or or how we exhibit stress is exacerbated when that stress is is higher. It's interesting. So you talked before, and this is a topic that I do find hugely interesting, this whole notion of fight or flight response, and stress is initially, or originally built to be a protection mechanism. Is that a fair question?
Kristian Lees Bell (04:20):
Yeah, yeah definitely. When you are experiencing stress of that initial surge of that, those physical symptoms of getting ready, that fight or flight response your, we call your sympathetic nervous system is activated. So for example, your adrenaline levels go up, your focus can, you know, be sort of almost tunnel visioned into sort of like attending to something which might be a threat. Something that you really need to deal with. Whether that's a deadline or you know, a saber tooth tiger. So your adrenaline, your focus, heart rate, blood pressure, that can actually be quite mobilizing. It can be helpful can't it?
Richard Anderson (04:54):
Your heart beats faster to encourage you to run faster away from that saber tooth tiger-
Kristian Lees Bell (04:58):
If you didn't have that you'd be in big trouble. You know, so as you say, protective mechanism. Yeah, absolutely essential. The science says that when we are in that sympathetic system and when we're, when we are sort of like on high alert I suppose in some ways that can, that's really important for our, for our safety, for getting things done as well. It helps us to mobilize our focus determination drive. So that's, it's essential, but we need to also sort of have some time to sort of reset to recover and to sort of switch that off temporarily so you can like just chill out as well.
Richard Anderson (05:32):
And the reality is obviously in 2022 we're not running away from saber tooth tigers and hunter gatherers and all that sort of stuff where we've got comparatively I guess easy lives on paper.
Kristian Lees Bell (05:42):
Yeah, definitely on paper.
Richard Anderson
Yeah, on paper of, of course. So in terms of the workplace, do you feel that we're experiencing more stress as workers now or is it because we're we've become more aware of these things?
Kristian Lees Bell (05:56):
It's a good, good question. It's quite complicated question and I think it's good to answer that. I think we can probably even look back over the last couple of years. I think we're moving on a little bit from conversation about things like anxiety and stress over covid. But I think it definitely still plays a part. So I think we are more, people are more stressed in the workplace. I think the data I suppose coming out of um, some of the major studies from C I P D for example, the HR organization, Deloitte, do some really good, um, some pieces on wellbeing every year and also the Stevenson and Farmer review, which are also really good for, for managers and people to look at. Some of the, the data that's come out of of those quite recently suggest that it is very individual, it's very context based.
But yeah, it is some people and some organizations in some situations that are experiencing more stress. Some industries for example, certain, certain groups of people. I think in terms of wellbeing, we are not back to pre pandemic levels. It seems as though as, as actually a population in the UK we're not as happy, we're not as content and we're probably more stressed than we were pre pandemic. But actually interesting the data shows that even up to the pandemic we were sort of struggling so it wasn't quite as, as optimistic and as positive as it was years before that. And stress levels d yeah, you're right have been increasing over the years whether they've increased post covid, I think that, you know, it still remains to be seen but I think the stigma is still, is still there. Absolutely. I think as you say, you talked about awareness and I think that's a really good point in that um, a lot of it is due to the fact that people are, I suppose expecting more from workplaces. So therefore they will be talking more about their challenges, they'll be opening up more because there's more awareness there. Uh, organizations actually to have hap they have no choice but to really provide more resources and support than they'd done previously. And that's across the board. So that's been really good. But I think there's still, yeah, it's definitely still a lot to do there.
Richard Anderson (07:55):
It's funny because you, you, you think, or you would assume that post pandemic, obviously the world of work has changed. People have often have the ability to work very flexibly. They can work almost where they want when they want. And you might assume therefore that people might be less stressed. But I guess it's, it's not as simple as that because for me for example, that wouldn't do me any good working, working from anywhere I need to, I need to be with people. That's, that's one of the things that, that, that's hugely important for me. And I wonder to that point, when we talk about the pandemic and the fact that we were almost, or we were forced to lock down or we were forced to essentially work from home, did that have a, a hugely negative impact on a lot of people? I know it did for me. You talked about over before that's too much drinking and I did both of those things.
Kristian Lees Bell (08:38):
Yeah, for, for for for majority of people. I mean I, I even did surveys myself when I was doing training and delivering webinars and it was quite interesting actually in the first couple of months of lockdown, cuz we were doing a lot of zoom training, I asked people, so how, how did they feel about their mental health? About 75% of of people, I mean it wasn't a massive sample, but you know, a couple of hundred said that their wellbeing had been adversely affected through the lockdown and it continued to be so, and interestingly there were, there were about 20% of people have said it was actually good for their mental health. So there was probably a bit of novelty there. The idea and the possibility of have having a more flexible sort of home arrangement for some people actually improve their wellbeing. But I think for the large majority anxiety levels went up, uh, at the beginning of Covid actually sort of tailed off after about a year or so and then depression became actually more predominant, which is quite interesting.
But I think for a lot of people, yeah, the anxiety levels definitely went up, stress levels went up. People were more worried and concerned really about, I suppose what, what's going to happen? What's gonna happen with my job or how am I gonna work out how to work effectively remotely or how am I gonna look after people that I need to look after? And that was actually another thing that came out of the research is not many people had that same sort of level of, um, sort of confidence and support when they were maybe taking out, look, looking after people at home or taking care of loved ones. And loneliness again was a big, uh, factor as well, particularly in the early parts of lockdown.
Richard Anderson (10:08):
And I guess if it, it's something that goes on for quite some time, you talk about, well, what's gonna happen next? It's all what if questions that we know about when we're, we're suffering with stress and anxiety. If that happens for a long time, I guess does it become habitual? Is that, is that just the way of life then that you, you've automatically stressed so much that it becomes something that's not very easily to get back to normal levels of stress?
Kristian Lees Bell (10:28):
Absolutely. So for a, for a lot of people, and the research sort of backs this up, I believe, is that if you are, if you experience or chronic stress is, is is linked to a lot of other, you know, mental health, um, issues. So for example, they're often comorbid with anxiety. I see clients one to one and it's very, it's very rare that I actually get somebody for specifically for stress. It'll often be maybe they're feeling very anxious, whether it's panic attacks or O C d, ptsd, you know, post traumatic syndrome as well. That was quite, and still is a big challenge even for organizations as well for key workers, you know, experience that in some cases. So that chronic stress inability to sort of rest and recharge, particularly if people were have higher workloads, there were juggling lots of different things. You know, work life balance was harder as well.
So you've got all these demands and so if that continues then and there's no, there's no respite for that, people are not sort of practicing self-care, then yeah, you can get sort of mental health issues coming along. You know, physical sort of problems as well. Muscular skeletal, you know, sort of things like backaches and all of that sort of went, you know, really increased over lockdown as well. And, and even now when I spoke to my physio is, yeah, he says, well that's, yeah, a lot of that is, is the stress or people working from home for example, not taking care of themselves.
Richard Anderson (11:45):
And do you find on the work, in terms of how work relates to stress, would you say it's the most common factor when it comes to, to stress among the majority of people who suffer from it? So work because of your job, because of the challenges at work? Does that cause more stress than stress at home? For example,
Kristian Lees Bell (12:01):
When we sort of work with people who are experiencing stress at work, I'd say most of that is stress to do with things like workload, workloads, the number one factor, still relationship with your boss line manager again always comes up working style. So when people talk about being stressed, yeah, often if they're at work then you know, it's, it's very much the case that they, um, are really finding actually stuff, some of those working demands or culture, you know, very much a problem. But again, it's, it is rare that they, they're also not gonna be effective with home stresses. So in actual fact, for some people it might be the stress of home or challenges at home or something, whether it's an illness in the family, anxiety about their health, that's often actually more sort of prevalent for people, even if they're experiencing stress at work. It's often the home stuff that's actually really, um, probably more a media, but you know, these things they sort of feed into each other. So if you're experiencing stress at home, then again you sort of, you feed that into work and that makes work more challenging and what makes work more, more difficult because you've got less energy to deal with it. So it's, it's difficult to sort of really separate the two, I think.
Richard Anderson(13:12):
And I guess it's maybe a self-fulfilling cycle almost that you, you you're stressed at home, which makes you become stressed at work.
Kristian Lees Bell (13:18):
Definitely, yeah, we've all got sort of limited resources
Richard Anderson (13:21):
Of course we have. So are there any roles or industries in your experience, Kristian, that do suffer with stress more than others?
Kristian Lees Bell (13:31):
Yes, definitely. I mean the, some of the organizer or some of the industries that I work with suffer a lot of stress. Um, for example customer services, so not necessarily industry, but obviously the sales departments, customer service based probably fairly obvious to sort of work out why, but particularly with those roles where people were dealing sort of with customers on the phone actually or online, just with the volume of calls, the volume of demand, particularly over covid and, and even now at times as well, things like shortages, having to sort of like still remain polite, still remain professional when they were, might be they were working at home on a screen, maybe in an environment which isn't ideal or conducive to actually being sort of efficient or feeling sort of positive and dealing with sort of pretty challenging customers at the best of the times. And obviously when people are stressed, particularly over lockdown and especially even now as well, when we've got sort of like these worries about sort of financial concerns and cost of living, what's going on with the government, All of these things are sort of, can sort of raise our collective stress and people in those sales and customer services roles, I suppose are kind of indirectly getting, uh, the brunt of that stress. The stress of the stress, you know,
Richard Anderson (14:44):
Customer service and sales typically the, those areas that suffer with most.
Kristian Lees Bell (14:47):
Yeah, I suppose they're particularly departments and roles. I suppose if you're looking at types of organizations in industries, I'm even looking at for example, the public sector versus a private sector. Public sector organizations generally, particularly the, the, the really big ones tend to report higher levels of stress across the board, not always the case. Looking at sort of the health departments as well so that the health industry, um, and all the health organizations, again, by NHS for example, makes sense that they, they've experienced how people have experienced a lot of stress key workers, for example. There's a lot of instances of burnout in those organizations where they haven't been on the phone but they've actually been on the front lines, they've been sort of face to face and they haven't had that sort of recovery time. It really depends on those demands and, and the, the level of sort of control and flexibility the person has in industries. They don't have as much flexibility and control over how they do their work. Then maybe perhaps other roles and that's where the stress is, you know, particularly high.
Richard Anderson (15:48):
So as business leaders and team leaders and, and people responsible for, you know, with duties of care for employees, how do we go about, I suppose, recognizing that people are stressed? And I suppose we can get into the tips and tricks, but the reason I ask that question about how we recognize it is because it's very, very difficult. You, you talk right at the beginning about different manifestations of stress in different people, but people are good at hiding these things, aren't they? And it's, it's, it's a very difficult thing to do. So what would be the, the, the first thing that you would recommend for business leaders to, to go about I suppose recognizing those, those signs of stress among the team?
Kristian Lees Bell (16:26):
I think probably the first thing, and this would be the same for for individuals as well, would be the awareness piece of really making sure that people, managers, those who are actually across the board, but particularly that people, managers, line managers are, are more aware. So increase their knowledge about what the indicators would be and might be when we're talking about that, it's again, sort of Simons and symptoms and again, it could be different for, for different people, but with certain types of mental health issues for certain kinds of struggle, there are patterns. So it's really useful. It's actually really important for, particularly as a lot of people are working remotely and as you say, you can't, they, they, you don't have those same opportunities to be able to notice the signs are changing behaviors, but there are things you can do. So awareness of, I suppose some of the mental health risks, changes in behavior and habits, the way people think, how that might change, what to look out for in terms of maybe their work output.
But doing that in a way that's not big brother but is I suppose is monitoring with consent and cooperation, but finding out if there's been a change in working output or work quality in particular, people who are really struggling with a mental health tent, first of all to keep up the volume of work, but they find that the quality of that work declines over more time. Obviously the quantity will be declining as well, but that's often a pattern. So if managers, um, and organizations know about some of these things, they can, uh, can definitely mi mitigate it and also, um, then start to think about training managers about what to know and do to actually to, yeah, to prevent that and to, to deal with it. So I think awareness is is is absolutely massive there. And obviously training is a part of that. And also self-awareness is, I suppose for individuals.
So if you're a manager, you've got a big responsibility to, well there's a big opportunity to be able to support your team with their mental health, but managers are really stressed at the moment, they're probably the most stressed. It's alright just talking about supporting other people, but they've gotta also maybe be more self-aware of their own indicators. So how do their behaviors change? You know, where do, does their heart rate go up when they're feel stressed? Do they not take breaks when they're really stressed? Cause they're worried about not completing things. So knowing about our own triggers and actually managing those is again, a really important way to start sort of the process of helping other people.
Richard Anderson(18:54):
Absolutely. I think, um, self-care is a hugely important thing and I think when you talk about being aware, Kristian, it's, it's a, it's a really interesting thing because although I have a very baseline level of knowledge when it comes to things like stress and anxiety, and I've, you know, I've been through probably both at, certainly both at times in the past, I haven't been hugely knowledgeable about the signs and the symptoms every time. And sometimes I just think, well, this is normal, this is how everybody is, but that's probably not the case. I have a question relating to, to sales, so I'll give you a direct example. So when I was in my early twenties, I started a career in sales and I've always pretty much worked in sales. I think I was pretty good at it. I mean, I was, I was okay, I always got decent feedback, you know, I felt like I was a good, uh, good communicator, good listener.
But one of the things that I really, really struggled with in sales was the target, the number on my head. That was the, the the biggest challenge. So how do we strike a balance between, clearly a business needs a salesperson to hit a number and clearly if a salesperson is happy and not stressed, they've got more chance of hitting that number. But ultimately it's, it's up to me to manage my own stress levels, but I still need to hit, hit the number. So I, I guess what I'm asking is how can a business nurture somebody's natural talents but be very aware that they might struggle with certain elements of the job very specifically. Is there any tips and tricks for, for an individual like me who might have been good at sales but was constantly stressed about, about hitting that number?
Kristian Lees Bell (20:25):
Sure. It's not just you. I mean, sales is one of those industries where certain targets and, and having to hit the numbers can be quite brutal. I think for organizations it's one of the first steps, or one good tip is, as you've just said, it sort of to really to actually to get to know and to spend time with that salesperson to actually understand where the strengths and potential weaknesses lie. Sometimes that could just be a lack of knowledge of the product or a confidence issue, and therefore that means that that's adding extra sort of pressure and sort of perceived stress as well. And, and that sort of makes it harder to sort of meet the challenges of those targets. One to one support is something that when I've consulted in, uh, customer service or sales based organizations, you'd be surprised at the amount of teams that, you know, have a process for one toone support one-to-one coaching, but maybe when it gets really busy, when they're really hit, need to sort of hit target when they're sort of coming up to the end of a, you know, a, a quarter that falls to the wayside.
So that sort of one to one conversation sort of slips by. So I think it's the, the support of the, the sales manager or the coach is really, really key. I think particularly for new sales people to build confidence and to actually make sure that they set sort of, you know, specific goals and don't get too overwhelmed, but also, let's be honest, sometimes, you know, demands sometimes sell targets can be across the board, you know, uh, sometimes pretty unrealistic at times in some organizations that's happened. I'm sure many times, and I suppose, you know, if you've got a team that you know, 90% of them think it's unrealistic and even some of the top performers if asked would say, Yeah, that's an unrealistic target, or I've, I've very, I've hardly reached that target. Then that highlights a problem with the way work is organized and that the actual targets itself, that's one of, you know, one of the key factors for work stress that can as exacerbate it is demands the amount of demand.
So work demands how works organized the environment. So if that person perceives or thinks those demands are consistently too much, I suppose it doesn't always matter whether the work demands are actually too much, they might still experience stress and performance deficit if they think or perceive it's just too high. So I think you'd wanna really explore, okay, well have you ever hit the target? In what ways it is it, is it too much looking at the whole team and whether those targets have been consistently met or, or met sort of enough times by everybody. So it needs a bit of a nuanced approach there. So it's not always the case that yeah, the targets are unrealistic, but to be honest, I have been in teams where, uh, across the board people sort of have a negative perception of the targets, which is gonna reduce mo you know, motivation.
Richard Anderson (23:06):
I love what you're talking about relating to the coaching and the one to one stuff. And I've had that of course in the past. I think a lot of this was probably down to me, but I think it's maybe the responsibility of business leaders to create that environment or that culture where you can be open and honest about the things that you are, you're struggling with. Because I have to say it for me, I would've thought it would've been a sign of weakness, you know, if I was to admit that I'm struggling with, it's not even struggling to hit the number because you know, I was hitting the number, say I've always hit the number, but the majority of times I would've hit the number. It was just the thought of not hitting the number and, and it was probably a base level of stress that I might have, or certainly at the time higher than, than maybe the average person possibly again highlighting coaching there to really important thing I think for all businesses. So Christine, I know that you were talking about managers before, but what are maybe some of the, the tips and tricks that you would advise or give to managers to, to help reduce or eliminate stress in, in their teams?
Kristian Lees Bell (24:03):
I've been focusing on stress management and organizations for, um, a good few years now and it's, it's managers I think where there's still a gap in terms of knowledge, confidence and some of the tools available. We've talked about people and organizations becoming more aware of mental health and and wellbeing, which is great, but in some of the recent surveys I've seen, particularly where HR and people managers have been asked about whether managers or their managers are confident actually helping other people and supporting their teams. The general sort idea seems to be that there's, there's definitely still for many organizations a gap there, a gap in knowledge, a gap of confidence in particular, but the will is definitely there. So what I would suggest first of all is, is to have a, uh, a framework and not to have something which is completely overwhelming because there's so many things that you, you could do in terms of wellbeing and mental health As a manager, there's so much stuff online, there's a wealth of information isn't there now, almost too much.
The way I work with managers is actually through a quite a simple four part, um, framework, which is actually developed by a good friend of mine, Alan Bradshaw. We work together actually on this a lot of the time we've been using it in organizations to train managers in terms of what they need to know and do. So the four parts really are quite simple. So I think it's really important for managers to increase their awareness. When I talk about awareness, it's about understanding the mental health impact of um, some of the current challenges of covid and the aftermath of that, particularly sort of remote working loan working and even and, and the hybrid type of working that many of us are involved in. It's important for managers to know what are the, the, are some of the risks, the psychological risks that those things actually, uh, pose.
Richard Anderson (25:49):
We talk about things like the psychological snippets, so things that our psychologists know from positive psychology, things like self-efficacy, emotional contagions, some of the really, really important psychological snippets at the last like 10, 20 years and just condense that so managers understand why might people be struggling If there's um, a lot of uncertainty and people are struggling with their finances, how does that actually play into sort of possible mental health and stress? For example, We've got some of a rough idea, but just getting, being armed with some of the just a simple psychological theories, practical things, it just gives them a context. So I think which is really important and I think it's also important for managers to know about three types of risks, health risks, which we talked about a little bit. So how does stress and mental health actually affect the physical body?
Kristian Lees Bell (26:41):
How does it affect behaviors? How does it affect actually things like muscular skeletal issues, things that they can actually notice as managers business risks as well. So actually managers to know about actually what sort of things to notice as a result of, of high levels of stress, whether we talking about stress related absences, presenteeism, so just having a background knowledge of what sort of risk business risks you might be actually facing. So the knowledge is really important there. And then also learning a little bit about, um, some of the factors that are actually associated in the research with stress. One thing that comes up is very, um, common in the UK is something called the management standards. So these are six standards or six site factors that have been in the research tied to um, higher levels of stress. And you know, we've talked about things like working demands.
So demands is one of those management standards that was sort of developed from research by the health and safety executive. So demands is one control, so how much control do we have over the environment? Managers need to know about the importance of that, giving their staff a, an element of control in their work support, social support and support from colleagues, line manager, that's another management standard, which is really, really key to stress and lowering it relationships. So it could be obviously the importance of healthy relationships or reducing conflict in relationships cuz that can sort of spike. So the levels of stress and anxiety if it's, you know, if there's conflict and fighting or bullying. And then the last two being role. So like, you know, how clear is the role? Do people know what they're doing? Do they know what their job entails? And then last of all, change and we've had, you know, lots of that over the last couple of years.
So organizational change, how's changed, communicated, for example by the organization. Knowing these actually can also help managers categorize the kinds of stress that their team are facing and there's lots of tools. Um, we go through them, some simple tools where they can actually categorize these kind of stresses and understand them and, and help their team members to actually kind of work on them, but sort of knowing what kinds of stresses they are. The second part is prevention. So prevention is, is, is one big tip I'd give for, for, for managers and organizations in general. Still we've got the problem of people sort of reacting to stress organizations providing support in terms of counseling support or an employee assistance program, which is, which are important, they're important cogs in the wheel, but they're not the bill and end all. And actually preventative strategies that are actually focused on the particular challenges of the whole organization, the business unit or the team specifically.
They're the ones that give you the best ROI that's shown in, you know, a lot of the research as well. You know, you get more bang for your buck with focusing on preventative strategies. So yeah, managers, if they know what kind of factors prevent to actually increase stress, they can think about, okay, how can we maybe adapt, improve some of those working practices, lighten the load or give my, you know, employee a bit more flexibility in some ways increase their control, that will reduce stress. That's, you know, even more powerful than once or somebody's already got it. Third part I think this is really important is monitoring. So again, it's not sort of monitoring big brother style, but it's monitoring with consent and with corporation. So it's monitoring is about okay, the knowledge, the skills of managers to know if they've got a concern or not.
With a, with a team member's wellbeing, how do they know if they've got a concern or not? This is where like knowing about the indicators and the signs and symptoms are, is really key here. If you know what to look out for, then you can actually notice some of those sustained changes in in individuals if you, if you really get to know your team members and if they trust you, if you build that level of trust, you've got a lot, a lot better chance of actually monitoring your team's wellbeing over time. That's really, really important. So monitoring I think is, is critical. And last but not least is responding. So once you've, you've, you have a course for concern, what do you do with that information? So it's important for managers to actually have con sensitive conversations to know how to do that, how can they prepare to have those conversations that's actually helpful for, for them and for their staff member. And then also what to do if, if they, if they're not, they're not counselors, uh, they can't solve the problem themselves necessarily how to signpost. So, you know, do they have the knowledge to actually refer that person to the appropriate time support. There's an element of knowledge and skills and tools there. I think that manages definitely if using a an approach like that can definitely really help to sort of mitigate and prevent stress. So we call that the AP apmr framework. So awareness, prevention, monitoring, responding, really simple. Managers get it.
Richard Anderson (31:31):
Really interesting stuff, Kristian. Lots to unpack there. I love that as a framework, I mean as you were going through, I was making a few notes, I think we talked about knowledge or awareness being such, such an important factor and, and and when you went through the six standards there I was thinking, well I'm definitely gonna look into these because it's uh, it's, it's, it's definitely something that I would like to know more about. But I think when you talk about prevention, I guess from a business perspective, you talked before if, if we can prevent it, we're gonna save a huge amount of money in the longer term just, just purely from a, from from a business point of view as well. So one of the things I was keen to learn a little more about and and talking about how you can have that, I suppose that relationship with your staff where you are confident enough to have open dialogue and open conversations with them, but how do you do things tactfully in the sense that, you know, you might have a staff member that we talked before about overeating during the, the pandemic and, and going about that conversation with somebody where they normally wouldn't over reap, but the last thing you wanna do is offend somebody.
And I think that's a, that particular topic is, is an example. So, so going about these things tactfully that would be a really important thing and, and one that I wouldn't, you know, wouldn't know straight away how to do.
Kristian Lees Bell (32:36):
No, well a lot of people don't. The most important thing when it comes to preventing mental health issues from actually, you know, from happening and to actually helping to protect well to support your team members, the best is, is is taking action and actually doing something about it if you really do have a concern. So I think what you said is, is very valid. I mean I, but I think sometimes that sort of maybe a little bit of fear or uncertainty about actually broaching the subject or worrying about saying the right thing. I think that unfortunately can sometimes mean and has meant for some people that they haven't actually broached the subject or they haven't had that conversation or somebody else has had it. Maybe somebody who's, whether that's a mental health first data, which would be a, should be a positive thing if the organization has somebody like that but they might not.
So I think that's a valid concern. I think the first thing is to remember that most important thing is to do something about it. So if to take action, if you do have a concern, that is the most important thing cuz there's also things like legal risks and if, if you're not actually taking action or, or or doing something about a concern that you have about that person's wellbeing, you're actually kind of potentially sort of making you and your company liable for um, you know, obviously not taking sort of that, having that duty of care for the, for that person so that there is that as well. But I think more directly planning is, is really important here. So it sounds really simple, but I would suggest that if you are fairly new to having those sensitive conversations or if you're not sure what to say, I would suggest to allocate time for actually planning for that particular conversation.
I'd also suggest getting, getting as much data and information about that person's maybe the indicators and the signs and the things you've noticed before you have that conversation. So it's not a, as you say, a spur of the moment, oh you know, why is that or what are you doing about this? Or I've noticed you're doing that when you don't have the actual full picture. So your job as a manager actually is to sort of build up the picture by I suppose being, getting as much information as you can or data about that person and then planning maybe what you could say what sort of questions you could ask. And it could be as simple as saying, look, I've noticed that something and something specific that's actually happened. So you are, sometimes you are, um, you're logging off a little bit earlier than you, you used to do or you know, the quality of your work has are slipped a little bit and or make it something specific, you know, to do with work. And is there anything that um, you know, you need support with? Is there anything that I can help with and often that can actually get that person to, to sort of open up and remember they might not necessarily have talked about this to anybody at work. It might open the floodgates to them actually just sort of feeling as if like, wow, you know, my manager actually has been taking care of, of me and actually noticing me. It's funny because it's probably even just an overthinking thing from the manager that might prevent them to have that difficult conversation first
Richard Anderson (35:32):
That's it. Absolutely. You also mentioned when you were talking about the framework there, Kristian, about being able to sign post and as a manager, you're not a counselor I guess as a business coach you're not a clinical therapist or, or counselor as well, but where do, where does it stop being a business issue and then become more of a, I guess a counselor therapy clinical clinical issue and the line slightly blur and where where do they stop, stop blurring.
Kristian Lees Bell (35:57):
This is why it's important that people managers have a good idea of maybe some of the support structures so they know sort of what kind of issues need extra support or what how, what, what sort of organizations they can sign post their employees to, because you're right, they're, they're not. Um, and this includes mental health first aid as wellbeing ambassadors. They're not counselors and even if they are counselors outside of work, they're not counselors at work, so they're mental health champions or they're managers. You're right, there is definitely a distinction there. I think a managers, I suppose focus should be on, they shouldn't shy away from sort of work stresses and, sorry, home sort of related sort of strains or worries or anxieties cuz that can affect work. But I think maybe that first conversation is very much about sort of how it's affecting their day to day work.
If that manager or that person feels uncomfortable, they don't have that knowledge, then they also should have the, uh, the expertise and, and the knowledge to be able to sign post, to know sort of like maybe internally there's somebody who could be the next step for that person to talk to. Maybe there's a certain allyship group or a support network in the organization. Mental health First data could be the next person who does have experience of a particular issue maybe, or perhaps it's, it's a simple case of knowing sort of is is there, um, an employee assistance program, is there an occupational health provider that, you know, they can actually provide counseling too. I think knowledge is really key here. And if they, if you don't feel comfortable or if you, if you don't know, then it's to find out as much as you can that what's available or, or, or ask as well the conversations you have with that person, not, might not necessarily just be one 10 minute conversation.
There could be a series of two or three to really get the full picture, but yeah, you're right, there are certain things that might come up in a conversation where you would definitely refer or, uh, tell that person that you're gonna refer. So for example, an obvious one is suicide or mention of suicide because the, the issues of things like confidentiality don't necessarily apply. If um, you're talking to somebody or an employee and they mention, you know, obviously having an urge to, to kill themselves or, or to commit suicide, then it's a case of really knowing, okay, so telling that person, you know, that, that you'll need to, uh, contact the emergence services, certain instances that you still need to know sort of what to do, what to ask, what information to sort of gather. Managers don't know that they haven't had the training. So most of, but normal, you know, people outside of work, they're not gonna know either. So
Richard Anderson (38:25):
That's why this, this knowledge piece is so important and we keep coming back to it and it makes perfect sense why awareness is the first part of the framework there because it's, it, it's having people aware and knowledgeable about these things is so crucial. I do want to give you the opportunity to tell the listeners how you can support businesses using this, this framework of course. Or how do you support organizations? What are the different types of services that, that you provide?
Kristian Lees Bell (38:48):
Yeah, so I provide business psychology consultancy, so there's support for organizations in terms of stress and mental health support that could involve quite a few things. So, you know, we've talked about, uh, stress management today, um, and I think that's probably one of the key services on my specialism. So it's about consulting with organizations, supporting managers to be able to, to reduce and prevent stress. That could be around helping to develop policies, so stress policies or wellbeing sort of programs, which will help sort of, uh, you know, prevent those, um, stresses and mental health issues from, from happening in the first place. It could be around one to one support as well. And those, some companies who maybe have one particular person or a few people who are signed off from work with stress for example. So we also provide support to get those people back to, to functioning well and, and feeling confident again once you know, they get back into the office.
So in more specialized help for, for example, maybe anxiety or, or, or depression related issues as well, which could be, you know, work or usually home related. But I think probably the main focus, um, what spend most of my time with is management training. There's, there's still a gap there I think with for a lot of people. There's always more confidence and more knowledge. Um, things change as well in mental health. So there's a lot more talk now of people needing support for women, for, for menopause for example, for for sleep issues, a disability for different groups. So, you know, I also provide help for organizations to I opposed to support their managers to um, you know, get the best outta their teams.
Richard Anderson (40:22):
Christine, listen, such an important topic. I've really enjoyed listening to, to the answers, um, that you've given to my questions. I've learned the hell of a lot. So thank you very much for that. I'm sure the listeners will have done as well, so if anybody wants to, to contact you at LinkedIn, the best, the best method for that. Yeah,
Kristian Lees Bell (40:37):
I'm fairly active on LinkedIn, so please, um, sort of, yeah, connect if you're not already, but if not, um, yeah, say hi on LinkedIn. So it's uh, Christian Lee Bell. You can also send me an email on uh, Christian, um, happy work hub.com. That's Christian happy work hub hub.com. But yeah, LinkedIn's a good place because I've be talking a lot about, uh, yeah, management, uh, management practices and stress management as well. So look forward to talking to you, to everybody on there.
Richard Anderson (41:04):
Fantastic, well we'll put a blog post up with this as well, Christine. We'll embed the links in there to your LinkedIn and to your email address as well. So we'll have them there. Christine Libe, thank you so much for your time, really appreciate it
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Thanks for you too. Thank you.
Voiceover (41:16):
Thanks for listening to Psych for Business. For show notes, resources and more, visit evolveassess.com.
