Psyched For Business Podcast Episode 10
Episode 10:
The journey to Africa's first psychometric with Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek
Richard is joined by Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek founder of Zanga African Metrics, who has pioneered the first psychometric assessment specifically for the continent of Africa. In this episode Nankhonde and Richard discuss her vision, the journey, and the process to building the first African psychometric.
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Episode 10 - Transcript
Voiceover 0:00
Welcome to Psyched for Business, helping business leaders understand and apply cutting edge business psychology principles in the workplace.
Richard Anderson 0:10
Hi and welcome to Psyched for Business. My name is Richard Anderson, thank you for joining. In this episode I'm joined by Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek, founder at Zanga African Metrics, and she's pioneered the first psychometric assessment specifically for the continent of Africa. In this episode, Nankhonde talks us through her vision, that journey and the process to building the first African psychometric. Enjoy the episode. Nankhonde, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for your time. How are you today? Happy Friday.
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 0:44
Happy Friday, Richard. I'm great. And it's a pleasure to be on your show.
Richard Anderson 0:48
Now, it's a pleasure to have you and I love that T shirt, the Zanga African metrics t shirt that you're supporting. And people will see that when we release the clips of the podcast. But I've been really excited to have you on Nankhonde , I've had the pleasure of getting to know you probably over the last couple of years, and you've done something incredibly pioneering and you've built Africa's first psychometric, which I'm really, really keen to get into throughout the duration of this podcast and all the listeners will be really interested in that. So we'll do that in a second. But as a bit of a starting point, would you be happy to just introduce yourself, Nankhonde, who you are and what you do.
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 1:24
So I am Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek, and I am an executive coach based in Lusaka, Zambia, which is in southern Africa. And I've been a coach for about 12 years now. It's been a privilege to practice transformation, change management and leadership development in my country. And this has been really a follow on to my first if I want to call it that way, my first career in international development, globally.
Richard Anderson 1:54
Brilliant. And, and obviously, you've been doing that for a long period of time. And I remember a couple of years ago, when we first started having conversations, you said to me, Richard, I've got a vision, I've got a clear vision. And I want to develop the first psychometric test, not just to be used, of course, in Zambia, but across the continent of Africa. And I know that you told me the reasons for that but I think it'd be really good to let the listeners hear what what those were. So what was the vision? What was the vision in the first instance Nankhonde? Why did you want to build psychometrics specifically for Africa?
Unknown Speaker 2:27
You know, I've been an executive coach for 12 years here, and not just in Zambia, working across eight African countries over this period. And I think initially, I was starting to understand that through my coaching, the way that I was able to observe impact was linked to my ability to translate, if I can call it the Western tools and methods that I had been trained in to the local culture. And this was very intriguing for me, because I had been using different tools to support coaching and organisations and started to realise that there were differences in the coaching experiences, where the culture was allowed to come forward, and actually be part of the conversation and the exploration, should I if I can put it that way, and trying to get to the bottom of understanding what was happening in particular coaching scenarios. And through that, I clearly started to pick up and code, these behaviours that were coming through, and their source and the source was the culture. And it was very interesting for me, because I've been trained in the West. And I really appreciated being grounded International, international best practice in management and leadership development, in terms of understanding psychology from a coaching perspective, and organisational behaviour, this grounding for me needed to be taken a step further, in my practice, to reflect the people I was coaching, the fact that they're African. And the fact that they their experience is really driven by the cultural influences and nuances. And so I had been using psychometric assessments to help establish baselines to measure growth, because I was always influenced by being able to not only have a create the safety in the container, understand the objectives for the change. But eventually, over the years in my practice, metrics, and measuring transformation became even more important. And so the psychometric tools helped me to do that. And so I put the pieces together and got these tools that helped me establish a baseline have got this lens that's looking into the culture, and it's not being reflected in the tools so why not build the tool? So I was trying to solve my own problem and add more value to my clients by actually seeing them and seeing them in the session. Meaning that I see you as an African I see all of you, I don't just see the professional you I see the culture and the environment that emerging market contexts are coming from. And that all has a role to play in this transformation.
Richard Anderson 5:06
Culture is such an important thing Nankhonde we're hearing about it more and more. And I love that the you've been trained in the psychometrics that were potentially built for a western audience or using Western methodologies. But you want it to adapt that for an African cultural standpoint. What did you build in that case? So you've talked about kind of the why and why there was a need for this, but what did you go about doing what is what is Zanga Metrics?
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 5:31
So Zanga African Metrics is a pursuit. And it's a vision to provide solutions that help change in individuals and in teams and organisations from an African lens, I really wanted to appreciate and respect the international theories and tools that I have been trained in, but give them a local face, and give them the opportunity to really be leveraged to be optimised in this context and environment. So Zanga African metrics is about that. This company has been built and established to develop a tangible tool that can be used to establish a baseline from a management and leadership perspective, that not only gives feedback on performance and potential around cognitive and behavioural competencies, but layers it will five cultural dimensions, and those five cultural dimensions that I eventually came down to, because there were quite a few initially, when we started looking at the different aspects of the culture coming forward in the coaching sessions, I had about 15 of them. And I kept sort of trying to understand the linkages and the connections and the duplications and eventually came down to five. And these five cultural dimensions that are layered in the tool, beliefs, community, loyalty, respect, and pride. And so we've got our competency framework that has four pillars, it looks at your mindset, how you think relationships, how you relate with others, leadership, how you lead yourself, and how you lead and develop others. And finally, execution, how you get the job done, so the psychometric assessment that we built, looks at management and leadership competencies that I think are relevant and important in an organisational setting in an African context. And it's really designed towards developing people. And so with that lens, the five dimensions are cross cutting, and through the design of the assessment, you can actually pick up the relationship to the five cultural dimensions in terms of how they influence decision making in an organisational context. And we don't say that it's right or wrong, we just say that it's present. And if we're going to really add value to our audience, who are African clients, then we recognise and see them through these cultural dimensions, and support them to appreciate how they're influencing their decision making.
Richard Anderson 7:56
Of course it's much more fit for purpose now that you've got to specifically towards those those cultural dimensions that you've talked about. And at what stage in the process, I guess, in the development process on the typically used Nankhonde, would you would you place these assessments in advance of going through training programmes, and maybe afterwards, how does that typically occur?
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 8:15
So the assessment itself is actually developed to use either for recruitment, it does give you feedback, and it gives you feedback in terms of how you are performing against currently, and it doesn't define you, it just gives you a status quo at this point in time about how you are performing in these four areas that we address through our competency frameworks that can be used for recruitment. And that is because we do have raw scores behind it, that we have been able to map to standard scores. And so that allows us to give a ranking of people in a particular cohort for recruitment of particular positions. At the same time, our initial vision for this, in terms of my work as a coach was with for development, for allowing managers and leaders to have a baseline that helps them appreciate who they are and where they are at any stage in their career and how best to develop them.
Richard Anderson 9:09
Brilliant. And I think even though, you know, we've talked about recruitment and development and even though tool can be used for either aspect, and obviously working with leaders to develop leaders within an organisation, even from a recruitment standpoint, if you're providing people with a little bit of feedback and information about where they're at on the dimension, that's a development tool in and of itself, even though it's being used the application is for recruitment. So what you've done is fantastic. Brilliant. So you've talked through the why and the what behind Zanga African Metrics. I'm really keen and I know the audience will be because we have a lot of people that are considering developing their own psychometrics, and they'll want to hear it from somebody who's been there and literally worn the t shirt. So I'd be really keen to get into the process. So you were new to psychometrics. You know, you'd worked as a as a coach or consultant for a long time. You weren't new to psychometric by using them, but building your own, it was a new process. So where did you start? Blank Slate,
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 10:07
I think sometimes that I do get to ideas that I have to implement. I searched initially for a psychometric assessment that has a lens through the African culture and some cultural dimensions. And so I didn't initially set out to build my own, I looked at the work of Philip Brzezinski. And I tried to find other tools that had taken that into account. I couldn't find it, I couldn't find anywhere on the continent. And maybe they're there. And I wasn't able to find them in my search. But it was quite a thorough search. And we realised that the number of assessments for management and leadership development tailored to the African culture and context are limited. And also it means that the norm group, so the comparison groups behind the assessments that help the understand the population, you're being compared against, skewed towards the west. And so all this started, it was like peeling an onion went through solving this problem. And so I decided, then, well, if it doesn't exist, let's do it. Let's build it, let's contribute to the knowledge. And let's contribute to African thought leadership in this space, and build the tool. And so that was the first exciting idea, then the process started, how and with whom, and I must say that I'm really delighted with the process, because it started by looking for people who can help me build this. And I identified first Sten10, Ben Williams, at Sten10 through LinkedIn, and through LinkedIn, I started engaging him on my idea, and we got an a call. And one of his great team members at the time, Kiki was brilliant, because Ben immediately knew that the cultural aspect was important in here to find somebody from his team of business psychologists who could relate and appreciate what I was trying to communicate. And so I worked very well with Kiki. Kiki helped me basically take out what was in my mind, and bring her expertise and her training through business psychology, to help us come up with what is now the Zangha, African Metrics and Zangha 1.0. And, in fact, in at the time, it was 1.0. But when we're now on Zangha 2.0, because we've incorporated some of the feedback, so the process required relationships, and the relationships, search started through my networks and understanding who can I find who is in this space who can help me having connected to Ben, Ben, Ben introduced me to you, Richard, because once we had designed it, we now needed to develop it. And my relationship in the design and work with Sten10, I would say, was really a mutual partnership. Because when I came to them, I was quite clear that I had done my homework, I had sort of narrowed down my cultural dimensions, I had looked at the competency framework that I wanted to work with and narrowed down to those four pillars. And under each for each of the four pillars, there are four areas that they look at, in the questionnaire, we designed the assessment built in the cultural dimensions, then we had to develop the platform itself and the tool. And that's where the relationship introduced evolve assessment solutions. I think what is key is that at every stage of the process, from the design into the development, there has been a mutual respect for each other. And there has been an appreciation that we are doing something new. And because we're doing something new, there's going to be a lot of questions, and we're ready to figure them out together. And for me, that was brilliant. I wanted to work with people I knew had experience in the different areas, even looking on the continent, I did search from a Zambian perspective and not from an African continent perspective, for the skills that would help me design and develop this. And because of my global networks, and I think this is why it's so important to serve and and be supported by local and global networks, is because the opportunity came to then work with the local team, I put together to make sure that my ideas and my categorization of the culture into these five dimensions made sense locally. And then I was able to bring the Global Partnership to the local team, and actually go from design to development with evolve assessment solutions. And that process was really over a period, you know, as you're aware, it took us time to, to work from the design to the development to the testing.
Richard Anderson 14:44
It's been an absolute pleasure working on the project. And it's funny because with projects of this nature, and when I say with projects of this nature, this is incredibly unique. You've got to be able to share the vision as well together I think and and obviously you've got a very entrepreneurial mindset with this. There's this really a gap there that we're looking to try and fill. And one of the things you were talking then Nankhonde that struck a chord. And it's probably something that I've taken for granted a little bit because at this stage that I get involved, or we get involved as a company in these types of processes, all of the very, very hard work has been done, you could say, and obviously, we do a lot of hard work with building software to deliver. But there's the questions and the items that go into a psychometric questionnaire, or psychometric test. But one thing I never considered was how much work you'd have to put into creating the dimensions and the behaviours that you want them to assess as well. But that wasn't something that just happened overnight.
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 15:37
No, it didn't. And I must say, the other assessment tools that I'm certified in, really did some of the groundwork for me, because I didn't study industrial psychology. My background is management. So I studied management. And I've always been fascinated by you know, how do people manage resources and organisations to achieve results. And so I had to then appreciate that the tools I'm accredited in, introduced me to the design of assessments, because the certification process takes you through the training in understanding what the assessment is designed to measure, and how to apply it and use it for impact with clients. And so I had that foundation, but really, I had to learn. And that's what took me also to, to register to do the BPS test user certification training, the British Psychological Society test user certification training, to understand some of the terms that later clicky went on to use in our work, the validity, the credibility, the items, standard scores. So I had to do a lot of work myself, just to be able to come to the table with enough knowledge that could help me make decisions. And as an entrepreneur, I carry this mindset in everything I do, if I have to learn something, I'll do it, I'll study it. And I'll be obsessed by it. And really, I think we the assessment development process became an obsession, because I would come out of the different sessions of development, design and development. And I would literally have to go online, and literally have to have calls with other colleagues who use assessments and solutions to just help understand what we were building and what I was understanding. So I did a lot of groundwork myself, I taught myself a lot of what I was then able to bring to the table, but knew that my knowledge and capacity really reached its limit, you know, the Peter Principle, and that's where leveraging the other people's skills in the network became very important.
Richard Anderson 17:44
And you talked about the network and finding initially Ben through LinkedIn, it's these tools are fantastic on the and the fact that we, you know, we've managed to build this relationship on different continents and using tools such as the ones that we're using today. It's incredible, we're very fortunate in 2022, I think for the types of relationships that we can build because of the technology that we have at our disposal. And I guess as well Nankhonde, probably a, an iterative process. And it's probably something that you're constantly going to be reviewing the psychometrics or the results, the benchmarking the norms, potentially different versions of it, as time goes on.
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 18:18
I had four objectives in the vision for this. And it was what does success look like? Success, for me looks like an assessment solution that is reflective of the population I'm trying to support. So make it relevant, make it accessible, and sustainable. So that meant actually ensuring that it was available on different platforms or devices. So whether it's a laptop, or smartphone, you know, because the context here also is that not everybody will easily have access to device, or the internet. So I really wanted to address that, that make it relevant was the first thing I was trying to achieve. And also put it at a price point. That means that it's not only used at middle to senior executive levels and organisations, it can be used throughout and much earlier. And this is because at every level, because we want people to arrive into the C suite, having built a solid foundation that has been prepared at each stage. And it's so important in this African culture and context because people are coming from different experiences. And the nature of the of developing countries is that you can't assume that the foundation people come into management and supervisory roles is is the same and that's relevant globally. But even more so here. So you want to have this this playing field that we use tools to help even as people progress in their careers, so make it relevant and accessible. The second area was make it have impact in this context, it must be able to provide data for transformation, data for organisational change on performance and potential and linkage to then analytics that will help not just ELA and learning and development teams but So CEOs make decisions around how to manage and support their talent. And so collect the data. Even more important within that data is the first African norm group has the data, this population, but it's actually, for the first time, when we look at the backgrounds to assessments, it says 90% is Western, maybe another 5% is African and often Africa is grouped in Middle East and Africa. So let's reverse that. Let's make a population that's 90%. African, but still also have those benchmarks of Middle Eastern and possibly Europe and North America. This is important for me, because we want to be able to see what are the game changers in terms of human capital development on this continent, I want to be measured against the growth of the continent, we're going through the Africa free trade agreement process, where Africa is actually opening doors to its markets to itself, we've looked externally for so long. And we're finally figuring out how to leverage our relationships, and create a picture of the potential to not only trade but also grow and develop in a different way. And so for me, this data means let's assess then each other in terms of leadership development, for for somebody in Zambia, let's map you and compare you to somebody in Rwanda, or in Guyana, or in Kenya. And let's see how we're doing. Let's create that data of development across the continent. And then let's see how we can then live it with Western data. Because we still want benchmarks we all want to grow. And so for me, the data is so key and that data being generated is wealth, it's gold. Because I think for the first time, we're going to fully appreciate how some of these cultural nuances that the assessment captures, are actually reflected in the day to day and can support more impact.
Richard Anderson 21:57
I mean, it's so important to have a norm group or a benchmark group, a group in which somebody individual is compared against that's a relevant group can't be a completely irrelevant group, because it's not going to measure what it's supposed to measure. If it's not against the, you know, an appropriate groups, I think what you're doing is absolutely fantastic. I'm keen to find out a little bit more Nankhonde about the impact that this has had so far on what you've seen so far with rolling out Zanga African metrics and how it's gone down in Africa so far.
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 22:27
Interesting. So when we were doing the testing, we did approach respondents from seven African countries. And that was important, because we wanted to get the demographics that reflect not just Zambia, but also different regions across Africa, it was very important to understand that if we're going to be able to have a credible assessment tool that speaks to the African context, we would need to ensure that other African regions are also included in the process, even though Zambia is the anchor and the home of the solution. And so impact wise, the feedback I've received is that this is pioneering this is new, because the fact that it is anchored in international best practice in management and leadership means that already, there's some credibility. And there's some references in terms of the theoretical frameworks behind what we're trying to assess and measure. Now the cultural dimension is where I think the next level and the perspective changes. Because the perspective then goes from this tool that is robust and is credible, to the fact that it is now not as robust and credible, it is reflective, and it is relevant. And so that combination for me was really what I had an idea for what success should look like, the feedback I wanted to receive from the either coaches who were part of supporting the development, or the respondents who have used it and the clients we've worked with, has to understand, does it help you achieve your objectives at the end of the day, we're trying to help you manage your talent. But we want to help you manage your talent in a way that you can create create learning pathways to success, that are reflective of your population or your employees. And the feedback we've had so far has been that the cultural dimensions really speak to some of the challenges that have ended up having people on performance improvement plans for the wrong reasons. It hasn't been because they're not competent. It is because when we look at some of the multinationals, we're working with some of the insights into what growth should look like. And the predictability of behaviour from a management and leadership perspective, leaves out some of these lenses into the culture and so their blind spots into some of the reasons why people end up on performance improvement plans. And through the coaching and the conversations. The feedback has been that you've picked it up. And in fact, we have people who have been able to appreciate better what they need to do to To Change to achieve the results that the organisation is not seeing. And it hasn't always been because of competence, it has been sometimes increased awareness around how some of the choices and decisions are being influenced by the culture. And to see where it's present this when the assessment we call this application, meaning that it's present, we all have a cultural aspects that are reflective in how we show up at work. So awareness is that its present, we move to application, meaning that you can see it's more in the way this person makes decisions. And then adaptation is that it's present in a way that it's going to have an influence and impact in an organisational setting on the final outcome. That's where the predictability of what the person is going to do changes. And so the feedback we've received from our clients, and I'm so happy that we've been able to implement Zenga, 1.0 and Xanga, 2.0, with clients in two financial institutions, one government department and one MnO. And we're currently in the process of rolling out the Xanga, one point or 360 feedback assessments tool that has already been pre requested by three clients. And so it's been really exciting to understand that the awareness and visibility of what we've built is coming forward. And as that increases, we're now getting more requests to understand what is this tool that we're using that is on the continent? And how can we actually get more information and how in terms of how we could potentially apply it in our organisation. And I think what has supported the timing of the birth of Xander African metrics is the global movement around cultural and diversity, if we're going to really work on being more inclusive in organisations bringing equity and equality, we also need tools that we use as a standard that help us do that, and help us see the differences, not to focus too much on the differences in terms of why people are different, but rather use the differences as a lens to compliment. And I think the fact that we are able to bring in the cultural dimensions recognises that we are different. And in our differences. There are different factors that influence how we make decisions, and surely those perspectives can enrich an outcome. And so I'm really excited to be part of conversations about cultural and the diversity and inclusion globally. But even more so on the continent, because it's interesting that from an African perspective, for example, Zambia, we have 73 ethnic groups. And although we have, the main languages that we use in some of our work is other seven main languages, we have always had diversity, or even within this culture. So this is a given, we have to build these tools, because it is who we are. And this is how we have learned to coexist.
Richard Anderson 28:05
I mean, you speak so passionately about it Nankhonde. I love the fact that the feedback that you've received, is probably the very feedback that you were hoping to receive that the cultural component to this, which is all the hard work that you've put in all of that research. That's the bit that's getting the best, the best feedback and the fact that it's relevant culturally. And I know of all the great conversations that you've been having. So you touched on looking at building the 360 tool. You've also mentioned the fact that you've built you initially had Zanga, 1.0. And now you have 2.0. And that's based on feedback that you've been receiving from from clients and people that you're speaking to, what's the future look like? So, you know, if you look, five years into the future, what do you see for Zanga African metrics?
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 28:48
So five years from now, interesting question. And what I see is an acquisition. From a business perspective, I believe, what we have built is a very valuable solution that will eventually become part of the suite of tools that a larger firm will acquire. And I do believe in partnerships, I believe in mergers and acquisitions. I think we create something good alone, but we create something great together. And so for me, in the next five years, I do see us merged or acquired by a larger firm, who is going to bring their size to a whole new level for Xanga. And the opportunity for this conversation that we've ignited in so many ways. At the same time. I also see as producing quite a lot of data about performance and potential from a management and leadership development perspective in organisations across Africa. So adding to not only the statistical qualitative, but also quantitative information about how change happens in this culture and this context on the continent. but also how to develop leaders to drive results. And I think it's also speaking to in the next five years, what I believe is a shift in terms of, I believe what financial digital solutions did for the financial sector. Technology is doing for human capital development. And so I see more use of technology to facilitate and enable human capital development in a different way. And I think that's where the fact that the assessment solutions being online means that they can be used by anybody anywhere. And so I do think there's an opportunity for Sangha African metrics to even go beyond the African continent. When I gave, I received feedback from other cultures, I was interested to find out that because of the way we design the assessment solution, it's not specific to Africa. And the cultural dimensions don't tend to give you feedback to say, like I mentioned earlier that it's right or wrong, it just says it's there. And it is what it is, we're using it as a almost a frame through which to see and support development. Because of that, the next five years, also has possibly Zanga metrics being Zanka metrics, from the Middle East, and Zanga metrics from Asia. Because those five cultural dimensions, the feedback I've received is that they're so relevant, and speak into those cultures. And so I do see us over the next five years, going beyond the African continent, and being part of a much wider and larger solution, and contribution to the world.
Richard Anderson 31:34
There's an enormous amount of growth opportunity by the sounds of it. And I know that from what you've told me previously, as well, listen, Nankhonde just looking at the time, but that's been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for making the time is there is there anything else that I haven't asked that you would like to you would like to mention, while while you're here,
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 31:52
The only thing that I want to say is to say, really thank you to you, when we engage, you stepped into new territory, same same as Ben, it was so fascinating to bring you into my world. And as I brought you into my world, I also feel that I learned more about the sort of assessment solutions that you've been building for different for different clients, and how there was an opportunity to learn from here from an African perspective, and develop this global conversation around assessment solutions. And I really appreciate the fact that we have the story, we've built the story together. And I hope it's going to inspire others to be a bit more daring. And to also understand that you can do it, I remember when I gave feedback to Ben and Kiki, that I want the rating scale to change, I don't want to work zero to five or one to five, I actually wanted to have opposing statements, which forced people to determine first which statement is more like them, and then which one is less or more or more like them. through that whole process. I was given the evidence and the story and the theory behind why the Likert scales are developed and how this may not work. And I said it's going to work because we're gonna make it work. Because in this culture, you have to understand that social desirability is very high. And so we have to put people into a perspective where they have to choose. And so that world and stepping into it with me, is something that I want to thank you for. And Ben, because we have pioneered and created something new. And it did require some stretching of your understanding of how we were going to do this. But every time you both came back to me and said, Okay, well look into it, and came back with a solution. So I love that. And I really want to share with anybody who wants to do something like this, maybe not as as broad or as different. But working with Evolve Assessment Solutions and Sten10, for me, was the perfect partnership.
Richard Anderson 33:55
Perfect Nankhonde. We didn't script that at all. I didn't ask you to do that. Didn't you? Volunteer that so thank you so much. Absolutely. I've loved been involved in the project, you know, and having played a small part in it and can't wait to see what the future brings. And I'm sure we your dreams will come true with it. But listen, Nankhonde thank you very, very much for making the time and thanks for coming to be a guest on Psyched For Business. I've loved having you on here in terms of how people can contact you if they want to find out a little bit more about Zanga African Metrics. Are you happy for me to put that your LinkedIn or website address on the blog post?
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 34:29
You can put our LinkedIn and our websites link on the post in the podcast.
Richard Anderson 34:34
Well, thanks for the time Nankhonde.
Nankhonde Kasonde-van den Broek 34:36
It's been a pleasure. Thanks.
Voiceover 34:39
Thanks for listening to psych for business for show notes resources and more visit www.evolveassess.com
