Join Rich Anderson as he talks to Chris Herron, Chartered Occupational Psychologist at Sten10.
Together they discuss all things Imposter Syndrome, including the causes and thought process behind it, who is likely to experience it, the signs and symptoms, personal experiences with imposter syndrome, and most importantly, how you can tackle it.
Transcript:
Voiceover 0:00
Welcome to psyched for business, helping business leaders understand and apply cutting edge business psychology principles in the workplace.
Speaker 0:13
Hi and welcome to psyched for business. I’m Richard Anderson, and today I’m joined by my friend and colleague, Chris Herron. Chris is a chartered occupational psychologist and works for our sister company, Sten 10, who are also part of the unseen group. In today’s episode, we’re going to dig into imposter syndrome, what it is, why it shows up at work, and practical ways to handle it. So if you’ve ever thought, I’m not sure I belong here, then this one is definitely for you. Thanks again for listening. I hope you enjoy the episode. Hi and Welcome to Psych for business. I’m delighted this afternoon, on this lovely autumnal day, to be joined by my good friend Chris Heron from Sten 10. How are you doing?
Speaker 1:00
Chris, hi rich, yeah. Thanks for having me. Very good, very good. Happy to join you and your millions of listeners, no doubt.
Speaker 1:07
Well, I mean, if we, you know, forget half that we’re doing. All right, Chris, you know, forget half that. But No, in all seriousness, it is an absolute pleasure to speak to you in this type of environment, because I think you and I, Chris, we’ve gone back a few years now, we’ve had the pleasure of working to what’s been my pleasure. I can’t, of course, speak for you, but I’ve had the great pleasure of having worked with you for the last five years or so, or whatever. It’s been maybe a little bit less than that, but quite some time, we’re now part of the same group in unseen so we get to work even closer together. And I’ve been doing this podcast now, Chris, for about, I don’t know, maybe two and a half years. And over the last year or so, it hasn’t been as regular. And we were chatting, and I said, You know what, Chris, it’d be great to have you an occupational psychologist, join psych for business. I know that you’re very keen to do. So I’ve got a very interesting topic that we’re going to speak about today, Chris, which is all about poster syndrome, and we’re going to get into the weeds with that, what it is, how it affects people, and maybe any experiences that we’ve both had with that. But for the listeners, would you mind, firstly, just introducing yourself, Chris, who you are, what you do and why you want to talk about this topic?
Speaker 2:19
Yeah, of course. And just add on what you said first, my I believe my response to you asking me was, you must be pretty desperate for listeners, which may have been my own imposter syndrome kicking in at the time, but I am a chartered psychologist for stent 10. So yeah, we are a consultancy that specialises in bespoke assessment design, whether that’s for selection or development, and there’s a host of other things we do in there, coaching, training, to name but a couple. And yeah, I’ve been with Stenton, yeah, going on four or five years. So yeah, you’re right. That’s how long I’ve known each other. And yeah, excited to talk about this subject today, because it’s something that has piqued my interest over the past probably 12 months, given some of the coaching I’ve done and just how common it seems to be coming up. So I thought, yeah, this would be a good one to talk about. So this is something you’re hearing about wards, yeah, yeah, especially a couple of clients we’ve done that’s required more coaching after the intervention. So for example, a leadership identifying potential in future leaders, and then we often see it, especially in that kind of transition period where people are moving into more senior roles or have more responsibilities, where this does kick in, but a lot of these individuals have been experiencing it years prior to, yeah, the coaching and the development programme.
Speaker 3:36
It’s really interesting, because I think with imposter syndrome, and it was, it was a term that I hadn’t heard I knew all about when I got into the definitions of what it actually was, which will obviously cover the day I hadn’t heard about it, probably until about three years ago, and then I felt like I was seen everywhere, like everywhere LinkedIn and podcasts people were talking about it, imposter syndrome. So I think we’ll start Chris right at the beginning, if that’s all right with you. What do you mean by imposter syndrome? What is it?
Speaker 4:04
Well, I think it was first defined in like the 1970s was the first kind of initial academic paper done on it. It’s essentially then it was defined as an inability to internalise any kind of achievement, and then a tendency to attribute any successes you’ve had to external factors. So I was lucky. I was in the right place at the right time. It all just fell together, that kind of thing. So in a mild sense, it might just present in a lack of confidence or in your own abilities or self doubt, but more significantly, those who experience it quite severely, it can lead to more distress, anxiety, impacts on mental well being, and often burnout, because people are trying to overcompensate for their self perceptions that are incorrect. And then that can lead to all sorts of things, obviously, lower job satisfaction, for instance. So.
Speaker 5:00
Yeah, I would imagine as well. It’s, it’s one of those things that, if it affects to the degree where you are really struggling with stress and anxiety, it probably prevent, prevents you from fulfilling your potential, because you might be more reluctant to go for that promotion or go for that leap on the leadership journey, or whatever it
Speaker 5:21
might be I see. And so it’s a vicious circle, and a lot of people who do experience it are spending so much time and energy, often overworking, you know, to and often they’re really high achievers as well. I said that no one I’ve coached or worked with, even who’s had imposter syndrome, has ever been bad at their job, have been really, really good. You know, it’s just so sometimes it’s, it’s a symptom of just overwork, but then a lack of taking opportunities because you think you’re not there or not or not good enough.
Speaker 5:54
Yeah, it’s really interesting. I mean, when we were chatting about this, one of the things that you mentioned was that, apparently it’s not called imposter syndrome anymore. And you know, we’re going to call this podcast imposter syndrome, because I think that probably relates in terms of people’s knowledge of the definition. But apparently it’s known as imposter phenomenon.
Speaker 6:13
Actually, I looked into it and that first initial paper that I mentioned, they did call it imposter phenomena. But then syndrome became more common in the vernacular, presumably because it kind of emphasises the individual and it being almost like a dysfunction, but in most of the research now, because syndrome indicates a recognised illness, which imposter syndrome is not. As of yet, phenomenon is becoming, yeah, the more preferred term, again, and what you’re right, imposter syndrome is the thing that’s out there on LinkedIn, social media, so it’s more recognisable. But the key word is imposter anyway, you know that feeling of fraudulence, especially at work, but yeah, feelings that You’ve fooled others into overestimating your knowledge or your capabilities, and then really, subsequent fear of being exposed
Speaker 7:05
after that. Yeah, it’s, I mean, it’s definitely something that I’ve that I’ve suffered, suffered with, suffered from, and probably still do, to a degree. And we can get into that if it’s useful at some point. But it’s, you know, I wonder how much of it relates to confidence. I wonder how much of it relates to personality as well. I don’t know whether there’s been any research done or anything like that. Or anecdotally, you know, people who seem to suffer more from this. Is it? Is it a personality thing? Is it an innate trait that they have? Is people who are higher on what we would say, neuroticism in the Big Five and all of that sort of stuff. I wonder how much of that actually impacts people’s suffering.
Speaker 7:45
You’re bang on. There’s been research that has indicated just a positive correlation. Higher scores in imposter syndrome, higher neuroticism, which is very contextual, like state trait. So there will be certain contexts or situations that will bring that out of you more so depending on the context you find yourself in. So I mean, lots of people experience it, and the research indicate most people will experience it at some point in their lives. I think the last statistic error is about 70% that increases if in neurodivergent groups, I think it was more over 80% where neurodivergent participants rated themselves significantly higher in imposter phenomenon syndrome than neurotypicals. But I think that was a paper I read quite recently, probably this year. It was published, so I don’t think there’s an awful lot on that, but that is one finding gender. It’s funny, I read a meta analysis, and the very first, I should say, the very, very first paper that I referred to was on women in academia. So it does have quite a focus on women. People identify as female, but I read a meta analysis where it said, I think there’s like 16 studies found that imposter syndrome is higher in women. It also said 17 studies found there’s no difference between men or women. So the jury is still out on that one really, as to, yeah, what gender differences. Some find it decreases with age. Some find no age difference. So again, it’s very it’s very contextual, and ethnicity would be another one where it’s also common and been found in African, Asian, Latino cultures, but it’s just experienced differently. If you’re from like a Western, individualistic culture, compared to a collectivist one, where you may experience more shame or or you feel like it reflects more in your family, than the Western world, where we internalise it a bit more and it’s on us interesting.
Speaker 9:56
So you obviously, you’ve talked about ethnicity and background and you’ve talked. About neurodivergence And these people potentially suffering more with this. Do you see that it comes up more? Is it typically in leadership roles? Is it when people get to a certain level? Or I’m just thinking, how loud here I remember the beginning of my career, when I was working as a I think the correct term is individual contributing. Terms that people use, individual contributor, a sales person. And to be honest with you, Chris, looking back, I probably had imposter syndrome. Then I worked with some very experienced and really good or really well and highly regarded sales people. I thought, well, Craig, yeah, am I going to keep up, keep up with with this lot here, and that wasn’t even in a sales Well, that’s just a quick, you know, example off the top of my head. But are you seeing it more in leaders, or is it just across the
Speaker 10:51
board? Across the board, in my experience, I think the research would say that as well. It is definitely seen in periods of transition. So for those moving into more senior roles as well, but not only, you know, I don’t think it’s necessarily more prevalent, as you just said, you experienced it when you weren’t in a leadership role. So I don’t think we can say conclusively when it strikes, when it where it comes from, because, you know, different contexts will be probably more or less triggering for different people. And yeah, obviously, if we knew what, when and where it struck and what the actual causes were, probably do more to prevent it. But there are a range of different contexts that I think give rise to it. Some of it like, for example, I saw socio economic factors sometimes. So if you’re the first generation of your family going to be a student at University, so something like that. And there’s, there’s, there’s all sorts of theories, as well as around was it a familial pressure, or your parents putting too much pressure on you, or over criticism growing up or or sometimes over prayers as well as being so what, I suppose, what that would mean is, once you get to a certain point and you you don’t fall particularly well, but you’ve been used to praise all your life. It can, it can rock you a little bit, but, yeah, it has been found in those you’re quite right, those who attain success quite quickly it has been found in those circles. And, yeah, new roles, more responsibility as well, not just confined to that. Yeah,
Speaker 12:29
what you just talked about there when, you know, thinking about reasons that this sort of thing comes up. But I do get interested, I’ve got to say, and I’m not an expert by any more froggy insight going, you know, analytical side of things. You know what, what happened in childhood that makes you who you are. Ultimately, all of that, I guess, is immaterial. When you’re immersed in the situation that you’re immersed. It doesn’t really matter how, you know, how I came to be like this. It’s obviously interesting stuff. But one of the things that we’ve talked about as well is it’s not just this. Is you for life. You can change. You can’t overcome this. You can make it easier. But I guess, probably the first part to it, I’m guessing here, and I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong, is people’s awareness and knowledge of the fact that they have something like this, which is completely irrational, but nonetheless, still debilitating in many cases, yeah, I guess it’s the awareness piece. Like, you know, if I came to you, Chris, and you were my coach, and I was telling you about how, you know, I don’t feel like I’m good enough, who am I to sit at the top table, or who might have been the management team, or who all of these things that regularly go through my head, I’m guessing you’ll likely say, well, these are the reasons. And it’s not, you know, you’re very welcome here, and you should be here and all that sort of stuff. But it’s, I would imagine, the awareness piece probably, apart from, apart from anything else, before you can then start to coach people out of this.
Speaker 13:54
Yeah. And as I said earlier in in the call, there’s a few, you know, there’s a few people who have coached where I’ve said to them, Well, I’ve just known, obviously, your high potential, so you’re not bad at your job position, yet you’re experiencing these, these, these feelings, these emotions. So a lot of time you might resonate with this. Obviously, I don’t want to over generalise, but a lot of the time you’ll find that these people are perfectionists. They over prepare. They’re over thinkers. All these, all these kind of things that usually are just little telltale signs, that symptoms, if you like, of someone who does have a slightly skewed self perception. And that’s effectively what it is. It’s, we call it Attribution Error. They attribute their successors to something incorrect, and they don’t give give themselves the credit. So a lot of time as well. I find that people really struggle to take compliments if they’ve got imposter syndrome as well. So yeah, and when it comes to, like, the coaching, like you were mentioning, there. And so and I suppose in terms of getting people to realise there is an education piece, and that has in the research, been identified as one of the most successful interventions, really literally spelling out what it is, what the experiences are, and how it impacts people,
Speaker 15:20
yeah, no. I mean, I quite agree. There’s, there’s tonnes of stuff on the coaching side, of things that we can, we can probably get, probably will get into. And one of the, you know, the next talking points I had was, you know, what can, what can people do about this? And I guess there’s, yeah, there’s probably a few, a few ways which this can be improved, if you like. So I, you know, I wonder if you wouldn’t mind just going into a few of the things that you know you might do or Sten 10 might do, not in terms of a sales pitch for Sten 10, but do in terms of, you know, working with individuals on a coaching basis, or whatever it might be, you know, what are the plans that you typically put in place?
Speaker 16:00
Well, there are lots of different, I suppose, coping mechanisms or strategies, because a lot of the time, what the research indicates is the interventions don’t necessarily have a permanent effect. So it’s not like do this, this and this, and there you go. You’re cured. It’s gone, something you probably gonna have to wrestle with for most of your life, really. So some of the research would indicate these interventions are temporary, but the most effective ones being what they call external coping mechanisms. So there’s internal ones which don’t get me wrong, still can be somewhat effective. They’ll be the ones where, literally, you’re doing it yourself. So you’ll reflect on what you’ve accomplished in the in the past, which sometimes, again, can looking at that through an imposter lens, can serve to reinforce your negative sessions. So but other things, like recording, prayers, mindfulness, you know, these can be effective, but a lot of the time, the internal sort of coping strategies turn into people just trying to crack on, persevere and avoid it, avoidance, basically, so that kind of fake it till you make it, which can lead to emotional exhaustion. But there is some, suppose, weight behind things like recording, prayers, mindfulness, but what we’d be more recommending is them external coping mechanisms, which are looking externally for help and support. So coaching is literally one of them, as you mentioned there, sometimes it just needs someone to like a sounding board you’re holding up the mirror. Amount of times I’ve been coaching people and they’ve they’ve heard the words that have come out their mouth and immediately recognised it is irrational, you know, and then oftentimes, just having a mentor or a role model there who, like, literally does that role, the role model, the positive behaviours, and they can kind of course correct you and steer you and sort of push, yeah, I think a lot of people experience imposter syndrome when they are stretching themselves. So it’s not necessarily a bad thing, you know, it’s when they’re on, like reaching you sort of levels, I guess. But sometimes just having that emotional support there can can help with that and but I guess what also you need is work we do with with with leaders, is recognising indicative behaviours of people who might have So again, going back to that education piece, what does it look like in your employees? Not just you have an education, is what it might look like to you. But then there’ll be a psychological safety piece there as well. Because those who, yeah, afraid of being exposed or making mistakes. You know, that just links perfectly with psychological safety. So there might be greater interventions there to look at for for leadership teams, rather than just one to one coaching interventions. Yeah.
Speaker 18:57
I mean, there’s tonnes to unpack there, and a couple of different directions we could take this. Maybe we’ll go down both. But I wonder, you know, you talked about the education piece, and we’re talking about leadership. I wonder how beneficial it would be to certain organisations, and it depends on their eagerness to spend and budgets available, but how much of an education piece could be done on, you know, within early careers, or people just starting their career, because I would imagine that people who suffer with this, it might only, you know, might only reach the surface when they’re in a leadership role, but innately it exists in them, probably from whenever, from when they were younger, going Back to the whole brilliant I was thinking, let’s say, for argument’s sake, hypothetically, somebody gets to their early 30s and starts getting promoted in their career, and then they start experiencing pretty significant imposter syndrome. But maybe if that education piece was done earlier and exposures and all that sort of stuff at. An earlier point in their career. It might make it a little bit easier, rather than having, you know, a load of leaders going through imposter syndrome coaching, maybe that coaching could be done earlier in the process and that education piece. So, yeah, I was just thinking out loud, like, because money seems to become a problem when people are leaders. Yes, we’ve talked about, probably affects loads of people, but that’s where a lot of organisations will invest in their leaders.
Speaker 20:26
Yeah, it’s true. You know, leadership development is such a hot topic right now with, I think it was a World Economic Forum, leadership is one of the future, which could argue it’s have always been a skill of the future and a minus go the present in the past. But anyway, what I’m trying to get at there is, yeah, preventative measures are always better than reactive measures, aren’t they? So there are a few scales out there. I think they’re just, I don’t think they’re even necessarily commercial tools. I think they’re just out there in the public domain that researchers have used to do their research on imposter syndrome. So, you know, those kinds of scales could be used in I couldn’t even build it like, like you indicated, there of early careers, like onboarding, things like that, just just having that awareness in the leadership, yeah, that the managers and leaders having an awareness as well, if someone is struggling with this. But oftentimes the problem is, because you’re trying to mask and because you feel like an imposter, you find it harder to share that. Oh, well, if I say that, then I am an imposter. I am. I am literally telling you that I do not, I do not feel competent enough for this role, which obviously isn’t the case, and goes back to psychological safety of being free to make mistakes or and you know, like you’re not going to be judged, or fear of failure as best as possible should be, should be removed.
Speaker 21:49
Yeah, because it’s almost like you’re admitting, if you really struggle with this, it’s almost like you’re admitting to your peers, to your boss, whatever that I struggle with this, therefore I must have this. And it’s, it’s, it’s really difficult, and to be honest, because it’s a subject that I find very, very interesting, not just the imposter syndrome piece, but that whole kind of, I suppose, subconscious mind taking over, silly thoughts going through your head that aren’t actually true. And you know, a lot of this imposter syndrome is a very big one in a work context. There’s tonnes out of a work context. But, you know, I wonder how much of this, and, you know, this is the, well, I find this very interesting, you will, but not everybody will, of course, but, but I put a post out on LinkedIn. It must have been a couple of years ago, and I got some decent traction on it. And I was, I was saying, you know, where the blurred lines between coaching and therapy. So coaching with a with a business hat on, but where does it get into that area actually, where we’re looking at therapy here, and we’re looking at things like anxiety or stress management or whatever it might whatever it might be, and maybe, maybe there’s something, and I’m not suggesting for a second that a business coach does therapy or a therapist does business coaching, but there has to be some sort of work, presumably, that go hand in hand. The business coach would do a hell of a lot of it, no question. But I feel like there’s a little on that side as well.
Speaker 23:17
Definitely is and it’s it’s be in most of the coaching research papers, you’ll see that kind of where is the line? Where’s the line between what coach can do, even if you know it could be cognitive behavioural coaching, not therapy coaching, but it stems from therapy. And, yeah, where? Where are those lines? Where does it get to the point where you think, okay, ethically, I now need to refer you to someone who’s more specialising in mental health or mental well being someone who used to work at Sten 10. Shout out to Rachel. She had this great kind of like an analogy of where occupational psychologists sort of fit in when it comes to workplace performance or well being. And it was like imagining it on a scale of A minus three to plus three. A business psychologist can anything between minus one to plus three, anything minus two minus three that needs to go into someone like clinical okay? And I thought was a really, really really good way of looking at it. I’ve not botched her analogy there and got the numbers wrong. I’m pretty sure
Speaker 24:26
that was about, it sounds right, yeah, it sounds sounds good,
Speaker 24:30
yeah, yeah. I thought that was a good, good way of looking at it. And what about yourself? Do you think you said you’ve had experiences of it? Do you think it’s you’ve used it to drive, like, has it ever been a driver for you? Because I don’t know if I said that earlier, that’s how I see cause I’ve experienced it too, and I see it as because I get quite mildly, in comparison to some people who will suffer emotionally with it. It can sometimes drive. Me to push me a little bit like, I don’t know if you’d know about that. What’s it called Yerkes Dodson graph. It’s an old study about stress. A little bit of stress makes you perform better to a point, and that point is different for everyone, but past that point, your performance plummets. So it gives, it does give me that little bit of edge when I think, you know, my confidence and I do have that kind of self doubt. Should I be doing this? But I’m quite good at catching myself. I don’t know if it spurs you or drives you in the same way.
Speaker 25:29
It’s a really good point. I think it’s the awareness piece. And one of the reasons I was asking about the awareness piece is because for such a long time, I didn’t know that’s what was happening with me. To be perfectly honest, it was like, I just thought, Okay, this is the way I’m wired up. Yeah, this is true. I accept that, you know, I’m not as good as these other people, or, you know, whatever the case may have been, but I think you get to a point, and, you know, for me, it was only maybe three or four years ago, probably where you start realising you learn about and, you know, go off on a tangent here, but you start learning about how the subconscious mind works and how it’s there to protect you. And it sounds completely irrational and illogical, but that is the, you know, the purpose of this, and that’s why this is happening. It’s a it’s a defence mechanism, and for me, it was exactly what you just said there. It’s about recognising when that sort of thing comes up, and it’s about putting it down to just being a stupid thought. It’s like this whole adage, and it’s a little bit cringy, maybe, but you are not your thoughts. You can have them. You know, 70 every one of us gets 70,000 thoughts, apparently, on average, every single day. Imagine how much, or how many of those thoughts are complete BS, and, I mean, you’ve got it, you know, if someone’s going through my head like, you know, I’m I, I’m nowhere near as good as these people. Or a good example, when, previously, when, when we had evolved as an independent business, I suffered from it then thinking like, I didn’t, it’s funny, and I’ve never really thought about this, but I didn’t. There you go, there’s a great example. I didn’t have managing director or CEO as my job title on LinkedIn or on my emails. I call myself commercial director. There you go. There’s a good example for you. Yeah, I was, I was a, you know, you know, a fairly average sales guy in it, in a job previously, you know, we’d taken a plunger with evolve, and then all of a sudden, I become managing director. But I don’t want to say that I’m managing director, maybe because people will think, Well, cranky, he’s not a managing director. And there was, yeah, so there you go, there’s, there’s one example. And then, you know, after that, when we became part of unseen group, I get invited to be part of the leadership team. Thinking, Who am I to sit at this table, and I haven’t got the same skill sets, experience, knowledge, you know, panache, that these other people have. And it all goes through, all goes out and gets, gets a bit easier with time. But sorry, it’s a bit of a long winded answer, but yes, I’ve definitely suffered with it. But I think it’s about catching yourself and now knowing, okay, well that was, that was silly to change me job title, and that was a tough thought in my head that my actions then perpetuated. And that’s
Speaker 28:08
interesting, though, isn’t it? That kind of self deprecation, I think it’s a northern thing, because friends are self deprecating and actually speaking, I’ve spoken a lot about different research papers that I’ve read on this, and one of them brilliantly started with was a comedian. I can’t remember his name, but the one who said I’d not be a part of any club that have me as a member. So that kind of self deprecation that’s interlinked really, of imposter, imposter far, is really interesting there that you, you yourself, have gone started your own business, growing it up, been so successful that you’ve joined the unseen group, they’ve acquired you, and you still sat there at the table thinking, what am I doing here? I don’t deserve my
Speaker 28:49
secret force, isn’t it? It’s completely irrational thoughts and it’s nonsensical. And I know that if you take yourself out your own head for a second and you’re looking down on how you think and how you act, then, yes, absolutely, it’s it’s completely irrational, I think, when you’re immersed in it, and despite the fact that even now, despite the fact that I know that the thoughts are irrational, sometimes they’ll still come up. And I would imagine that’s where people who get this Don’t get me wrong, Chris, I haven’t had it where it’s enveloped my life and spoiled me, me work or whatever. But there will be people out there that are like that, because probably the more they buy into those thoughts and the more they associate with them and identify with them, that’s when they’re going to keep coming. And that’s when it’s like, okay, well, I’m not going to go for any more jobs. I’m going to resign, I’m going to go and get a job a level down, or whatever, and that is a real problem.
Speaker 29:44
Yeah, definitely, it really is. And, yeah, I mean, a lot of the time, like when you asked earlier about coaching, if we’re speaking to someone who’s suffering with this all the time, it’s just, it’s perspective, isn’t it? We get them to think, Okay, have you got any. Prior examples, or any, you know, any evidence to make this a rational fear of yours, because, like you say, the defence mechanism, evolutionary defence mechanism, is there to protect us. It’s but when it’s just so invasive that it just affects every thought, then you’ve got to put that mental resource into picking them up, identifying them. Nope, you go away. But that’s far better than it just curtailing any success or opportunities from that point onwards, or you being successful but not seeing it exactly.
Speaker 30:38
And I think one of the things that business can do, and I’m very careful as well, Chris, for any listeners, I don’t want to segue this into anything to do with evolve or Sten 10, but one of the things that I would imagine will be hugely useful for businesses is to foster, well, or to create some sort of environment in Which feedback and and and dialogue with colleagues, or whatever is is promoted can only be a good thing. And I’m thinking, you know, like, because it’s one thing, because we’re talking about having all of these thoughts in our head all the time. But if, you know, if I spoke to my colleagues, or if colleagues who may suffer with this spoke to me and got the feedback, actually, it’s that validation that you’re getting from other people, that this is actually just BS and only exists in your head, that will be that will be massively useful, I would
Speaker 31:27
imagine, yeah, that links back to those external interventions. Why actually looking outwards and getting input from from externally is has been found to be more effective because, like I said, it recalibrates those attribution errors. So if you are gathering feedback in whichever way you do it, from your your colleagues or your managers, whether it’s performance review, 360, you name it, you’re going to get those little course corrections, hopefully, where you know, my success is down to look and all that kind of stuff will hopefully be reframed and and then, yeah, you it makes it harder than to dismiss your own success, I guess, and you can start trying to internalise it a bit more, but it has to be consistent, and has to be Not cyclical, rather than just a one
Speaker 32:20
off intervention. And there’s a moral duty for organisations, but it’s up to organisations to put these things in place to enable that, that sort of communication, dialogue, feedback, all of that sort of stuff. So just, just, just to go back a little bit. Then Chris and you, you obviously asked me about kind of my experience with it. You said you suffered, or have suffered in the past a little bit from it, but you could have catching yourself. Was that still happening, or is it something that used to happen, or kind of, what’s your experience with it? Genuinely
Speaker 32:52
only half ingest at the start of the podcast, when I said, You must be desperate for guests, because it is almost like it can be like a default to, oh, like, first on the defensive, and then almost catch yourself. And I think, oh no, that’d be great, you know, rather being self deprecating off the bat. But yeah, I think it just goes back to what I said earlier, with with myself. It’s to the point where it will give me that kind of adrenaline, and then I will over prepare, which is, again, is a, usually a key, key giveaway of someone who does have impostor syndrome, and it will usually go really, really well, but, yeah, I probably over prepared because of that. But then often people, instead of getting a feeling of success, get a feeling of relief. I did it, it’s over. I get a bit of both. So that’s why it’s quite mild for myself, I think,
Speaker 33:54
yeah, and but at the same time, I mean, like, you see, I mean, you said it right at the top of the top of the call. You must have been desperate, which, of course, we both know. I was not desperate. I mean, I was inundated with guests, but, but, you know, like I said, I got in touch with you. I was really keen. I’ve wanted to do this with you for quite some time. Apart from anything else, we get on well together, but you’ve got a hell of a lot to offer and a lot of expertise. But it’s, it’s funny that you say that, you say that, and it’s almost automatic, you must be desperate. Why would you want to speak to me? But I think the difference is and just again, give another example to go back to what we talked about before. The fact that you’re here means that even if you were to think, oh, Craig, you must be, must be desperate. I know that you said it in jest, but even if there was a tiny bit of that you have turned up, whereas I think, excuse me for people who might suffer significantly with this, they would have just turned on the opportunity, or they would have turned down even coming here, and even though they would have inevitably had a lot to offer and a lot to contribute and a lot of good information to give, that almost like that. It’s like. Chimp Paradox. I don’t know whether you’ve ever, ever read that Steve Peters, but it’s like the chimp is almost no you can’t do that. You need to protect yourself, because you don’t. You know, everybody’s gonna think I’m crap or nobody’s gonna listen. I was like that when I started this podcast. Funny enough. Was like, Well, I mean, you know, I’ve got all these psychologists, people with letters after the name that I’m having discussions with an interview, and what the hell have I got to say about and there was a lot of that, and I kind of one of the things I thought, well, I’m going to do it anyway. I think that’s one of the things I’m better at now. Rather than avoiding stuff, I’ll just do I’ll just do it. And if it goes badly, it goes badly, choking off to experience. But nine times out of 10, as you said, it normally goes quite well.
Speaker 35:40
Absolutely it doesn’t, you know, sometimes it’s like exposure, isn’t it? You’ve exposed yourself to it, you know. And a lot of people are scared what other people are going to think, and can’t remember the somewhat. Can’t remember where already, but we severely overestimate how much people think are thinking of us. So we, you know, like I wasn’t coming today to speak on BBC Breakfast. No offence to the podcast. I’m sure you got millions, millions of views. Jordy. Joe Rogan, oh no, I should call you Jordy. Show that. Jody Rogan, but yes, it is. It’s a lot of people may just get to a certain point and then think I’m not good enough to then try and go further in their career. But then on the flip side of that, lots of people who are highly, highly, highly successful have it because they’re consistently feeling that they have to prove themselves so they gain lots and lots and lots of certifications, qualifications, you know, extremely bright, but don’t see it in themselves. Interesting.
Speaker 36:53
Yeah, I wouldn’t, it’s weird, because in my head, I would have thought, I must just be people that are, you know, early in the career, or, you know, just in the leadership roles or whatever. But the fact that it’s probably happens with with with very, very senior people, it’s incredibly interesting. So before you go and we wrap up, before you kind of talk about a little bit more about Sten 10 and how people get in touch, is there anything else that I’ve missed out that would be useful to go into on this, on this particular
Speaker 37:21
topic, I suppose one thing I could read out which I thought no one wants to listen to, and read a paragraph out on feel free to edit it out this. You and I mentioned that initial study about, yeah, there was on with women in academia, the initial imposter phenomenon syndrome study. So essentially, I thought this just hit the nail on the head with what a lot of people experience, and it just resonates so women in academia who, despite their attainment of degrees, publications, academic honours and a host of other indicators of their competency, were unable to internalise their success rather than acknowledging their effort and competency, these women attributed their success to a host of external factors. Some saw themselves as being lucky, while others suspected a mistake was made during the admission or hiring process. These women thought of themselves as impostors, who were not qualified for their positions, concluding that they had fooled others, interviewing them as more intelligent and competent than was actually the case. So essentially, when I read that out to people that I’ve worked with before, they just say, I have impostor No, to some degree, you know.
Speaker 38:35
But resonate with so many people. Yeah, yeah. Resonate with so many people. So Well, Chris, I really, really enjoyed that topic, and I would like to think this will be the first of a few that we can do together. There no pressure. I’ve asked you now before you answer that, but before you go for anybody that might be interested in having a discussion with you or stentan, whether it’s about coaching, whether it’s about imposter syndrome or any of the other brilliant things that you do as a company. How do people get in touch with you and and talk a little bit about, you know, yeah, how people get in touch and the types of things that you can support
Speaker 39:14
with? Yeah, absolutely. There’s a few ways. So you can contact me directly on LinkedIn. Chris heron, Sten 10, obviously, through our website, there’s an inquiry page on there, or the unseen Group website that we’re now a part of, or my email address, which I can maybe you can attach to this podcast
Speaker 39:31
as part of the transcript. Yeah, fantastic. Well, Chris heron, thank you very much for joining me on psych for business.
Unknown Speaker 39:41
Bit, thanks very much. Cheers, Rich.
Voiceover 39:44
Thanks for listening to psych for business, for show notes, resources and more. Visit evolve, assess.com
Voiceover 39:57
thanks for listening to psych for business. Us For show notes, resources and more. Visit, evolve, assess.com you.
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