After a long hiatus and returning with a brand new look, Episode 21 of Psyched for Business sees Evolve MD Richard joined by Leadership Thinker, Consultant and Author, Robert Bolton.
Join them in exploring how you can unlock new perspectives by combining left and right brain thinking, how leaders can best tackle dilemmas, and how to make the most of two-by-two grids.
Plus, you’ll get to hear all about Robert’s new book ‘Breaking Open The Boxes: 100 Quadrants For Wisdom and Success in Life’, co-written by friend of the podcast, Andrew Munro.
Episode Transcript:
Voiceover 0:00
Welcome to psyched for business, helping business leaders understand and apply cutting edge business psychology principles in the workplace.
Richard Anderson 0:13
Hi and Welcome to Psyched for Business. It’s been a long hiatus since we recorded our last episode, but I’m delighted to be back. My name is Richard Anderson. Thank you so so much for joining me in today’s episode, I’m joined by leadership thinker, consultant and author Robert Bolton. Robert and I talk about his latest book, breaking open the boxes, which was co written with Andrew Munro, who I’ve also recorded a couple of podcasts with in the past. In this episode, we go through how leaders can tackle dilemmas, the strengths and the pitfalls of two by two grids, and how left brain and right brain thinking can combine and unlock new perspectives. Robert, in this podcast, also shares some fascinating real world examples, from organisational culture and leadership. Candour to the challenges of hybrid working. I did genuinely enjoy this conversation, and I think and really hope you’ll find it both practical and thought provoking. I hope you enjoy listening to it as much as I did recording it. Thanks again. So Robert Bolton, welcome to Psyched for Business. Thanks ever so much for joining me. Thank you, Richard. Yeah, really delighted. I’ve been really looking forward to this one, Robert. And I think I’ve said you previously, it’s been a bit of a hiatus for psyched for business for some time, through a number of different reasons, we’ve had a big change to our business, but it’s one of my passion projects. I love having these types of discussions. So, and I can’t think of anybody better to be kind of bringing, bringing this discussion to the table after some months off, Robert, we’re going to go through introductions in a second, but just to briefly introduce you. So we were connected by a mutual friend, acquaintance, colleague of ours, Andrew Munro, who I’ve had the pleasure of interviewing a couple of times on Psyched for Business, who brought to my attention breaking open the boxes, which is, of course, a book that you’ve written together. I know Robert, you’re a leadership thinker. I know that you’ve been a long term consultant in the space of human capital, in organisational transformation, and now you’re an author, and you’ve fairly recently authored this book, breaking the boxes. I’ve read it. It really struck a chord with me. I’ve got to say, It resonated so much, and I’m looking forward to dissecting it and going through it in detail with you. There’s loads to cover on this session, but before we get stuck in Robert, perhaps for the audience, would you mind just introducing yourself a bit of your background and perhaps why you decided to write this book?
Robert Bolton 2:45
Yeah, of course. Of course. Well, my background is the people, space, people, management, people and organisation. And after a kind of a bit of a dodgy start to my career, which we won’t need to go into, because there was no pattern. I landed up doing Employee Relations at Nationwide Building Society, and that’s where my career took off, quite frankly. And I was at nationwide for about 10 years, and through that time, worked through a number of roles, but led the corporate HR function, as it was termed then. And during that period, I worked with Andrew, Andrew Munro, the co author, and we really, I really enjoyed working with him, because I he was clearly a thinker, yeah, and not only that, a thinker in the context of applying the thoughts and the ideas. So I realised that he was someone that was good to work with, and I enjoyed working with him. So I also realised that in my heart, really, I was a management consultant, and I knew that at the point at which I started, it was like painting the fourth bridge. When I was I was, you know, going around doing doing things nationwide. It might have been management, development, training, performance, reward, organisation, those kinds of things. And I was undoing what I did four years ago just to redo something. Okay, yeah, kind of it’s my mind is such that I like to design, design, fix, solve. So I went into management consulting. And when. Into KPMG and did Management Consulting at KPMG for many, many years, I finished up as partner and global lead for what was termed people and change consulting. Okay, by that time, Andrew had set up his own business and I continued to involve Andrew in some projects, you know, the design of tools and assessment and stuff like that. So our collaboration continued. But then a couple of years ago, I retired, you know, I just felt ready for for a new chapter. And I also felt, gosh, I need to get this book out of me. And we got Andrew and I got talking, and he and I decided that, actually, yeah, it’d be really interesting to collaborate on this book. He’d already started it, but was interested in some of the chapters that he felt that I would be perhaps more suited to write than him, and some of the grids that I might be more suited to write as well. So we had a really interesting collaboration and and breaking open the boxes is all about. How do you resolve dilemmas? How do you reconcile the fact that you know you might have one thing on the one hand but another competing thing on the other hand, and therefore, what do you do? Do you Is it a case of either or, and that’s what a lot of people and leaders and managers fall into, that trap. Well, it’s either going to be one thing or the other, or is it and both? And the trick with resolving dilemmas, I think fixing organisational challenges, yes, is to ask yourself, where’s the and both solution, okay? And that’s, that’s kind of what almost my passion, because that informed a lot of what I did in management consulting.
Richard Anderson 7:18
Brilliant. Okay, that’s, that’s really, really interesting, Robert. And yeah, Andrew. Andrew is a good guy, and I can, I can very much see the two of you working very, very well on this project, having got to know you a little bit from the discussions that we’ve had previously, and obviously the same with Andrew. So let’s, maybe we’ll start right at the beginning from the grid thinking. So, you know, let’s go. Obviously, I’d heard a little bit about the quadrants the grids. I’ve not had the pleasure. I’ve very much enjoyed working in small business, but I haven’t really undertaken many two by two grids. And I know that there’s a huge amount of people that have particularly in larger or corporate type organisations, but I don’t want to make any assumptions for the audience. So maybe if you could start by explaining a little round the two by two grids, and how what you’ve written and what you’ve created with breaking open the boxes kind of builds upon those, those two by two grids, yeah, just, we’ll start right at the beginning, if that’s okay with you,
Robert Bolton 8:24
yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I’m glad we are, quite honestly, because, you know, there are a lot of two by two grids around they they exist. One of the Sunday papers that that, the Sunday paper that I read, there’s a section always at the front of it where it’s the observer. They summarise what’s happened in the world each week with with a full a two by two, a four box grid. So these things exist all over the place, and of course, in management consulting, I you know you often, perhaps at the front of a PowerPoint deck, you might start to frame the question or the issues for the client, yes, in a way that’s accessible, and that’s where the strength of the two by two comes from, but there’s also traps. So let’s go right to the beginning. And we cover this briefly in the book 1954 the Eisenhower matrix. And that looks at things that on one axis, it’s an axis about urgency and and then there’s another axis, which is about importance. Of course, if something is important and urgent, that’s really where you ought to devote your attention, but you mustn’t forget things that are important and not urgent. Yeah. Yeah, and that’s where some some traps are, and it’s an example of a good matrix. You know, come comes from a speech that President iden Eisenhower gave, who’s in 1954 and he he’s actually referring to some work from a professor, a US professor who, I haven’t been able to track down the name, but I want to, but he the Eisenhower matrix. It’s well known. And of course, there’s the Boston grid from the Boston Consulting firm, which has things like, if you remember, it has things like cash cows for
Richard Anderson 10:43
it
Robert Bolton 10:46
has, in fact, because I’ve, I’ve got it here, it has cash cows stars. The star is where there’s big market growth, and the market share is relatively big, but it also has, I don’t like this phrasing dogs, and it has question marks, which is where there’s low relative market share, and in the case of dogs, low market growth as well, right? Okay, you know it’s a it’s a grid that, and Gartner has a magic quadrant. So the clues in the name, there’s these things exist, but there are also, you know, I don’t want to make it sound as if, so it’s easy. It is not easy. Yeah, you have to think about what that x and y axis is, yes, and a classic example, and you will have come across this, Richard, and I’m sure some of the people listening to this, it’s that classic performance and potential grid. Now you know the research, and again, we quoted in the book, I think it was from Roffey Park. The ability of people to distinguish performance, pure performance, from potential, is nigh on impossible, and what you end up doing with a performance and potential grid, and these things are used sometimes in performance management. Is a manager who will say, Yeah, well, this person has high potential because he or she is high performance, and vice versa, yes. So the two concepts are not separated, they’re not made distinct, and you end up with, effectively, a grid that’s only tracking one concept. Do I like this person almost, right? So there’s, there are dangers with these grids. And I’d like to think that someone getting breaking open the boxes will at least recognise, if they dip into it and work through it, how to do a good grid. Yes, and we talk about grid 101, because there’s 100 grids in 10 chapters in the book. But then we want to encourage people to go and do grid 101
Richard Anderson 13:30
what’s your grid? Of course, we it needs to be applicable for the person themselves, doesn’t it? But you obviously chose 100 grids between yourself and Andrew when you were creating the book, Robert, was there any, what was the thought behind the 100 that you chose? Was it, did you try and do different settings, different scenarios, different applications? What was, what was the thinking behind that? Because you’ve got a tonne in there, some really relevant examples that I’ve been able to draw a huge amount of value on from the ones that I’ve looked through. But, yeah, just out of interest, what, what were you know, what? How did you come up with 100 Yeah,
Robert Bolton 14:05
so we, we basically looked at those things that are that are quite personal and interpersonal, yeah, and we have some chapters that explores that. And then we looked at things that are about organisation and and career and and management, yes. And then we also have some chapters that’s, you know, it’s more big picture, like technology in the future of work? Yes, so those 10 chapters work through those, those three kind of areas, and each of those areas I get, I guess it gets bigger in terms of scope and more potentially far reaching. Yeah.
Richard Anderson 15:00
Brilliant, and you talk,
Robert Bolton 15:02
oh, and sorry, Richard, of course I can whiz through what those chapters are. Yes, I think that really helpful. Yeah, please, I’m gonna have to open the book to make sure I get them right, but the 10 chapters are so under personal mastery, that was the that first grouping. Yeah, there’s self management and life success, okay, there’s problem solving and decision making, and there’s implementation project management and doing stuff. Your next group is working through others. So that’s where we bring that organisational component. Yeah, that’s interpersonal relationships and skills, leadership and management, communication, influence, negotiation and conflict and culture and change management. Interesting. Then finally, there’s managing the business, and that is strategic analysis and planning, financial analysis and risk management. And the one that I mentioned technology in the future of
Richard Anderson 16:12
work, yeah, which is, of course, a hugely interesting chapter, and I have to say that’s probably the one that I spent the most time going going through the technology side of things. Obviously, having started and run a software business, who would you say? Robert is the book for Who do you have in mind when you were creating it? Was a consultant to leaders. Was a business people.
Robert Bolton 16:34
The Clip answer, you know, I’m going to say this so, you know, I mentioned, you know, to you, the person that leads the Watch Company, yes, he ended up giving it as Christmas presents to some people. Oh, brilliant, because he thought it had, you know, pretty broad relevance. Yeah, it’s now on the reading list of a master’s programme at one of the, you know, the country’s red brick universities. Yeah, and it may well end up on a couple of other reading lists, because I’m in conversation. So there you’ve got, if you will, students of management and organisation. My brother loves it. He’s a he’s a psychotherapist. So there’s, there’s, there’s, it doesn’t matter whether he loves it or not. He may it might just be because, you know, we got on well, and he thinks he ought to like it. But no, no, he he runs training in in some pretty, you know, heavy technical word, heavy areas of psychotherapy, and he recognises that you know what, what to help people through what they’re dealing with. Often, it’s a dilemma. Well, it is. You wouldn’t necessarily draw a grid, but it’s a dilemma to think through the competing forces the horns of the dilemma dilemma. So I think anyone who is interested in, let me put it this way, anyone who’s interested in thinking better, yeah, this
Richard Anderson 18:42
is an interest, and dilemmas come up in every context in life, very, very regularly, don’t they? So it can be applied Absolutely. I know that you draw a lot, and we’ve talked about this before, and it’s mentioned in the book on the work of Ian McGill Christ, yeah, and, and I think it’d be really interesting for the listeners to find out a little bit more on Ian McGilchrist work, and what you know inspired you about that and how that ties in to what you’ve created here, the whole left brain, right brain.
Robert Bolton 19:16
So let me do a plug for Ian McGilchrist. I Gilchrist, he has he has written some of the most important books and has conducted some of the most important research, full stop, right? He So, what is his work all about? It’s about the divided brain, as in, how we approach the world, how we attend to the world and and and attend. Into the world, either through a left brain perspective and or a right brain perspective. And there’s a great book, and it’s in my bookshelf behind me here. Okay, there’s a great little book that you can read in two hours, and it’s called Ways of attending how our divided brain constructs the world. And this is Ian McGill Crispin. This is Iain McGilchrist, and it will open a door for anyone who hasn’t come across his, his work, because his his thesis, if you will, is that. And there’s a deeper book, a more full book called The master and his Emissary. Now, the master, he argues, is the right brain. So that’s the the the part of the brain that sees holes as in whole things, yeah, relationships, connections, yes. And then there’s the left brain, which sees parts, which is more logical, which is kind of, if you will, organised around the facts and and, of course, his argument is, if we’re to function completely, we have to kind of integrate left and right brain. But the reason why he calls his, you know, one of his books, the master and his emissary, the master is right brain, but the emissary, which is left brain, has taken over it. It structures our world. You know, the way we see organisation, as in organisations, yeah, way we approach problems, challenges, the way that politics is constructed, the way that journalism works. It’s all left brain. Yes, you know it’s seeking that. Well, it’s either this or it’s this. Which side do you want? You know that’s that’s all left brain, yeah, and McGilchrist, that there’s a, if you, if you look at nothing else, get this ways of attending. It’s, it’s fundamental, I think,
Richard Anderson 22:55
ways of attending, yeah, ways of attending, of attending. We’ll leave that as part of the podcast, yeah, and how
Robert Bolton 23:02
our divided brain constructs the world. It’s such an you know, it’s a thin book. It’s quick to read, certainly quicker to read than breaking open the boxes. But for those, particularly the people on this call, that might come from a psychology persuasion. And if they haven’t come across in McGilchrist, then the master in his emissary and his his most recent book, which I think came out in 2023 it’s two volumes, and they’re both door stops. So I’ve got them, and I haven’t gone into them yet, but it’s, it’s called the matter with things okay, and all of which explores. And he, he is a, I think is Cambridge, is his academic host, if you will. But he’s both psychology, psychiatry, neuroscience, and he draws on all of these disciplines, as you might expect from someone that’s advocating a holistic view. He draws on all of those things and his arguments, I think, are hugely persuasive about how we’ve created a world driven by the emissary, not the master.
Richard Anderson 24:31
Interesting, yeah, and that’s the thing with breaking open the boxes, isn’t it? It’s not necessarily this simple two by two Eisenhower matrix that you’ve you’ve outlined already. There’s a much deeper level to this, bringing in the right brain. So
Robert Bolton 24:49
yes, you’re sorry. You’re getting me excited now
Richard Anderson 24:53
you go for another
Robert Bolton 24:56
in the conclusion, as you know, we. Talk about grid 101, this, that’s where we reference in McGilchrist, and we say, look, doing a quadrant is not about getting it right first time. It’s not, it’s, it’s not about, you know, having necessarily two left brain axes. Imagine, if you will, some of the creativity that might come if you reflect on the topic that you’re seeking to address, the issue that you’re seeking to address, the dilemma that you’re seeking to address. And you said to yourself, Okay, well, what would be a right brain perspective, either on one of the axes or both of the axes? How might that give you new insight, give you a breakthrough even? And that’s what we spend time on in the conclusions. And we we use this simple, think, talk, do framework, and we say, Look, if you seek to build your your new your grid, the grid to explore your topic, it may take a few grits to explore the topic, but if you, if you go through this think talk, do framework we give advice on, okay, well, you can think about your challenge through a left brain perspective. But also, here’s some prompts about thinking about it through a right brain perspective, and then set similarly talk and do left brain, right brain, yeah. And, I, you know, we, we firmly believe that this is a way of to use the phrase breaking open boxes. Yeah,
Richard Anderson 26:58
yeah. Love it fantastic and And presumably, you know, we can come on to this, because I know that we talked part of this session that I might have a little go at the grid, 101, for a challenge or a dilemma in my life or working life specifically. But if you had two people, let’s say, with the same challenge, quandary, dilemma that they’re going through in work or life. Could you have two completely different boxes depending depending on the person themselves? I thought that would be the case, but it’s really interesting. It’s all about what’s personal to the individual who’s going through
Robert Bolton 27:35
it exactly. And one of the things that we advocate in the book, and I have a conversation coming up in a couple of weeks with with a professor at another university, and I’ve said to him in correspondence, and I’ll be saying to him in person when we meet up, this approach that Particularly the grid 101, approach will work really well in small groups. I’ve done it with some small groups. So imagine a group of people that might be confronted with the same issue. Yeah, you know, the first thing we talk about is, well, frame it. What? Describe it as a question? You’ll know from the book that all of our greats start with a question, of course, but then as a group, go through the steps the think, talk do, and think about the left brain and the right brain. And if you do that as a group, you might end up with a really solid grid that the group buys into, or you may end up with a couple because people may disagree. It doesn’t matter. Work through two grids or one grid and then see where that gets you, because one of the powers of this stuff is also thinking about, what are you going to label the boxes? Of course, genuine dilemmas can’t be neatly framed as four boxes, but if you think of a creative approach, perhaps it might be regarded as a right brain approach, but doesn’t have to be, because you could have a left brain approach to to labelling the boxes that too, sometimes can give you some insight, some, some, some sense of a breakthrough. Yeah,
Richard Anderson 29:33
yeah. It really, really nice way of doing it. Brilliant. I can’t wait to get stuck into that. Shall we? Robert? Have a little look at maybe an example or two from the book, so we can explain some of the things that have been written in there. We talked about a couple of, a couple of options that we could talk through. And I very much like on page 377, of the book, Robert, are we covered? Ring up being the question of that, and it’s it’s particularly nice this one because it’s focused around the theme of talking heads, who you and I both very much enjoy. We’ve talked about that previously, but it’s not focused specifically around the theme of talking heads that forms part of it. But would you be happy to talk the listeners through what this section of the book, or what this box, one of the 100 that you’ve written in the book is all about, are we covering up? Yeah. And
Robert Bolton 30:30
of course, that question is couched from the perspective of the leadership team, yes. So it’s is the leadership team covering up? And seems to me to be almost, if not daily, then of weekly relevance. Yeah, just, just today I saw in the paper about the Countess of Chester hospital and some of now the leaders. This is where, of course, Lucy let be has been convicted of murdering babies, and that’s that’s an issue of some debate, of course, if anyone’s been following that, yes, three of three of the leaders managers were questioned by police yesterday and bailed for corporate manslaughter charges, right? And it’s a classic example of of, you know, were they, I’m not going to pre judge it. The question, though, is, were they covering up? And you just have to think about the long list of topics, Windrush, Hillsborough, Grenfell, Tower, post office, Horizon scandal. You know, these are all examples where someone should have perhaps asked the question, are we covering up? Yeah, yeah. And of course, you know, there’s, there’s another grid in here, by the way, around group think. So, you know, sometimes one grid isn’t enough to explore the spectrum. This grid is, are we covering up the axes? Are the vertical axes duty of candour. And of course, the Hillsborough law that has been talked about is about, you know, well, perhaps if we’d had a duty of candour, you know, with police opening up and saying, Yeah, actually, we made some judgments in the moment that that led to the the be the subsequent tragedies. Yes, then perhaps Hillsborough wouldn’t have happened, or perhaps we would have got to the answer around what happened at Hillsborough much quicker. So duty of candour. But of course, the competing angle is reputational concern. Yeah, you know, we can, we could, I guess, you know, the cold light of day, we can understand why a leadership team might refrain from being completely open, because they’re concerned about what this mean for our organisation. You know that we could certainly see elements of that with the horizon scandal. But as and we quote, by the way, one of the thing as an aside, one of the things about breaking open the boxes, you’ll know this. We furnish it with so many quotes from people, yes, and I love a good quote. And Howard Baker said it is almost always the cover up rather than the event causes trouble. And that’s one of the quotes. And then you mentioned the talking heads, yeah, one of the greatest bands of all time. We sometimes, Andrew and I, you know, we looked for, you’re not, you’re not seeking sometimes, to label these boxes in a, you know, with dictionary definitions. Yeah, you’re seeking to label them from the Spirit, if you will, yes, of what you’re seeking to to define, to discuss, to address, yeah, and I think it works really well here, low reputational concern, low duty of candour the brilliant stopped making sense, which
Richard Anderson 34:47
is, of course, an album of talking
Robert Bolton 34:50
heads, which is an album of talking heads, a brilliant live album. Yeah, highly recommend it. Yes. What about high. Reputational concerns you, you, you’re concerned about your reputation, but your duty of candour is really low, and you often find politicians getting into a mess because they, they, they, they talk nonsense, yes, speaking in tongues, they’re not being authentically honest. Yeah, the duty of candour isn’t there? Yes, they end up speaking in tongues. It’s almost like the brain is in a state of
Richard Anderson 35:37
confusion, because for those individuals, their reputational concern is paramount and trumps everything else, including that duty of Canada, which they’re not bothered about. Yeah,
Robert Bolton 35:51
but what about high duty of candour? You’re going to tell the truth come what may, but you don’t really care about reputation. Well, that’s true stories. Yeah, that’s being brutally honest. You don’t care. You know what people are going to say and think about you. You’re just going to tell the truth. Yeah. But then, of course, what’s the high? High, high reputational concern? High duty of candour. Another brilliant Talking Heads album. These are all talking heads albums. People haven’t clocked that remain in light, yeah, remain in light. And then we, we continue to quote throughout this this chapter, talk, not only talking heads, but a number of talking heads lyrics and yeah lyrics, basically Yes, but we also quote Michael O’Leary, CEO of Ryanair. One of the weaknesses of the company now is it is a bit cheap and cheerful and overly nasty, and that reflects my personality. That was a quote from Michael O’Leary.
Richard Anderson 37:13
So based on that quote, then, so where’s Michael sitting there, if we if he’s representing Ryanair? So he’s, well, that’s true stories. That’s true stories very, very low, reputational concerns, very high and and this might be a silly question, but I’m happy to ask you, like I said, I don’t mind asking the daft questions, are we looking to be in in the way that you put it the top right hand box, which is high on the y axis and high on the x axis, is that where we’re looking to be at all times, or is it? Does it depend? No,
Robert Bolton 37:46
a lot of our grids that that probably is the right place, yeah, because it’s where the reconciliation yes is. But not all of them, yeah, some of them, you’ll see them, and that’s deliberately, you know, we throw the reader a little bit because, actually, it turns out might be, usually it might be bottom right or top left. Yes, rarely is it the low low the bottom left. But even there may be one grid where that’s the case. Yeah. So No, it’s not always top right, but from that perspective of, you know, if you want to resolve a dilemma, yes, and if you that, what that means is you’re not going either or you’re going and both, yeah, then top right is the end both, yes, position,
Richard Anderson 38:44
yeah, following, brilliant. Well, that’s, I mean, that’s, it’s a wonderful example as and, you know, the quotations and the fact that there’s a bit of fun there with the albums as well, and it resonates. I love that one. So that’s a, are we covering up? A problem that we often see, unfortunately, in some big organisations, and as the quote by Howard Baker says, it’s almost always the cover up, rather than the event that causes trouble. As you mentioned before, Robert, I thought, if it’s all right with you, can we? Can we do another what maybe one more is that, is that, all right, the hybrid working, which is on one line, very, very topical, and seems to continue to be topical. So, yes. So the question on this one is, and is this from an employer perspective, but does hybrid working work? Yes, yeah. Again, if you’d be happy to talk through this one, please,
Robert Bolton 39:42
yeah, and this is where any Star Wars fans enjoy this grid, because we see again. It’s one of these topics where almost every other week we see some organ. Organisation saying, No, we insist people come in the office two days a week, when perhaps previously there was there was greater freedom. Yes, and and that sometimes, you know, means that some people are actually voting with their feet. So no, up with this. I will not put even though pre covid, perhaps they were expected to be in the office, if not two days a week, then five days a week. But, you know, I think the world has changed, and technology has enabled that change. So what? What is the dilemma? What? What is this grid about? Well, we, we looked at this, Andrew and I, and it seemed to me and to us, that on one axis, yes, it’s about results. It’s about is there certainty about the results we’re seeking to achieve. Is there control over the results that we’re seeking to achieve? It’s about results. It’s about the bottom line. It’s about productivity. Perhaps the other axis, horizontal axis in this grid. Do I have a say? Do I have a say? And that’s kind of from this perspective of an employee, yes. And what jumped out at me with this grid and and I’m not the only commentator on organisational life that’s that’s made this comment, Linda Gratton, who you may know London Business School professor, she made she’s the one that has written on things like the 100 year life and what, what is the changing demographics going to do to our world of work, which is, of course, relevant, in a way, to this, this topic, But the one of the descriptions that she had, and we reflect on in here is that, if you think of good old transactional analysis, yeah, and parent, adult and child as if you will, the three, I don’t know technically, what you’d call them, the three perspectives that you could be interacting with someone else through. Yeah, I could either be your parent, or I can be adults to adult, or I could be child. Yeah, the this two days a week come in two days a week or three days a week. And of course, I know, let’s just be absolutely clear. I know that we’re talking about the 40% of the workforce that can work, yes, from locations, other base offers. We’re not talking about, I don’t know, a retail shop assistant. Yeah, there’s 40% of workers now with the technology that’s available for which there ought to be choice, and we’re treating them as children. Yeah, I’ll say that again. We’re treating them as children. Yes, it’s parent child, and you’re the child, yeah. And let’s not fall into some fiction, some baseless fiction that they know what the productivity was in their in their office before covid. Yeah, or that they know what the productivity is now, yes, utter nonsense.
Richard Anderson 44:07
They do not know. They just want you. They don’t measure
Robert Bolton 44:11
it in any they could measure it, but they don’t. It’s simply, it’ll, they’ll come up with some, some specious nonsense that is, oh well, it’s to do with the culture. You know, we need to maintain that like they know where culture comes from. Yeah, right. So it’s about parent child. It’s about do as I say, Yeah, often do as I say, not as I do, with no understanding of where results come from. So it’s, it’s, it’s a muddle, yes, and what we what I’m thinking organisations that have thought about this a little more deeply. Is, yeah, let’s make it adult to adult. So yeah, we might, because of what this project team is working on over the next couple of weeks. We need you in
Robert Bolton 45:12
every, every day of the week, and that’s a conversation, yeah, equally, you might say, yeah, you have a say. You choose. You know, if there’s, there’s no need to be here, don’t be here.
Richard Anderson 45:30
Do I have a say?
Robert Bolton 45:33
Yes, high on, do I have a say? So this is where you, you, you, you’ve pointed to the four boxes, which we quite like. So hopefully this makes sense to a Star Wars fan. Low, do I have a say? And low on, on results. It’s the storm trooper. Yeah, you just go over there and you, you know, you, you don’t have a say, and you just have to stand there and look menacing. High Do I have a say? And low on results? Well, those of you who are well into the Star Wars universe, that’s Jar Jar Binks, who became, I believe, a senator at one stage, and in amongst his his nonsense pronouncements, and we quote Jar Jar Binks here, count me out at this one better dead here than dead in the care the core ye gods. What am is saying? Thanks, freedom for employees to do it their way. The downside, less focus on outcomes and more on look at me, potentially
Richard Anderson 47:02
right. Interesting, interesting.
Robert Bolton 47:05
What about high on results? But you don’t really have a say, and this is largely dictated by the work that you do. The Mandalorian, of course, the Mandalorian, he was a bounty hunter, yeah, so he has to go and chase the targets. Yeah, he doesn’t have a he can’t chase them remotely. The Mandalorian and of course, high, high Yoda, high levels of employee involvement, meeting attention on outcomes. Team members might come into the office for specific meetings or collaborative sessions, but they work remotely. Most of the time. It can be difficult to coordinate, which might be why managers, you know, I can’t be doing with that headache, yeah, but it requires imaginative communication for a smooth workflow for both remote and on site team members across different work groups and partnerships. Yes, we believe that exemplifies the adult to adult stance, yeah, which is a shift from parent, child, yeah, and we quote Yoda, do or do not. There is no try, yeah.
Richard Anderson 48:27
I love it. So is this something then, on this particular example that you just walked us through, the hybrid working, work? Is this something that an organisation might, you know, the leadership team might use when they’re considering implementing a hybrid or a remote strategy for their organisation?
Robert Bolton 48:45
Yeah, yeah. And I would suggest a leadership team needs to consider this grid before asserting you’ve got to come in two days a week because my deep, deep suspicion is that a leadership team that asserts that neither knows where their culture currently comes from, nor do they not really know where performance and productivity and their outcomes come from Yes, beyond a hugely unsystemic and superficial level, yeah. And betrays a parent child mentality, yeah. So if you want to run an organisation like that, go ahead. But yes,
Richard Anderson 49:35
yeah, probably not conducive to success. And I think yeah. So a lot of this is, it’s kind of prerequisite work before you start mandating or implementing new policies with relation to these things. I mean, fantastic. Couple of examples, and we’ve used different ones, I think. And and, like I said, I love the way that, you know, talking heads on the first one, you’ve got Star Wars on on the second one. But obviously the series. This theme that underpins the entire thing. Robert, we mentioned, excuse me, we mentioned, you know, in advance and preparation for this, that you might talk me through what or, you know, you can help me talk through a dilemma or a challenge, perhaps in my work, in life. So if it’s still alright with you, I thought we might, we might go through, we might go through that because there’s one that that’s that’s often there in the background, and it’s something that I revisit quite often, but I haven’t applied any process or strategy or anything like it. I’ve just kind of accepted the fact that this is a challenge that I just have to deal with. But but for me, it’s been this whole change. So in my kind of personal and working life, we’ve had a big change to the business. As I’ve mentioned previously, we became part of a wider group about a year ago, just under a year ago. But regardless of that, despite the fact that that’s been the case, and you know, since the beginning of our business, I founded evolve, assess. So I started the business. It was originally just me. Then we had two employees, and we grew about seven or eight employees. And the challenge I have is this kind of mindset or dilemma around entrepreneurship versus being a managing director of a business. I mean, for me, it’s been two very different things. I started the business. I was quite entrepreneurial. I was quite creative, all of that sort of stuff. And then all of a sudden, when the business gets to a certain point, you need to be managing director and start thinking strategically about the business and how it moves forward, rather than fly by the seat of your pants getting involved in every single job, wearing far too many hats. I’ve still done a lot of the founder led sales partnership work, face of the business, all of that sort of stuff. But it’s now time, probably, and I’ve done this to an extent, but maybe to delegate more and spend my time on doing more productive things for the future of the business, not just the here and now and the survival kind of mindset. So I thought, you know, we might talk through that, and how I might approach that particular challenge, using, using the grids.
Robert Bolton 52:15
Yeah, it’s, it’s a great one. I I’m well before, many years ago, before, before breaking open the boxes was, was even an idea. I I did some. I was a visiting lecturer at the University of Bristol, yeah, and it was on their Master of Science in Management. And I did. I led a couple of modules as part part time programme, and I was certainly part time because I was at Nationwide at this point. But I loved it because I was it kept me fresh. It kept me needing to stay up to date, yeah, and one of the students I, I tutored a student who through their dissertation, and their dissertation was exactly this topic, right? Okay, a small enterprise that was the the boundary point of becoming a medium sized enterprise with more employees, but the the leader was also at this transition point, This boundary point between there’s clearly this new role beckoning. Well, that’s how I hear you talk, yeah, you’re, you know, there’s this broader strategic role, absolutely, and but also that that has implications for the people that work with you and support you, yeah, because their role has to be in transition as well. It’s not just you Yes. So, you know, at its simplest, it was the way that I think you expressed. It was, you know, winning business, entrepreneurship, you know, continuing to go and get work and control, yes, so there’s a kind of growth versus control?
Richard Anderson 54:28
Yeah, great.
Robert Bolton 54:32
Control sometimes dressed up as being the MD. So what I would be exploring in a grid, 101 sense is, first of all, is the strategic direction, the thing that you believe you has. Have to be custodian for how much of that is actually shared by the people that work for you. One of the classic pieces of work I was involved in for an organisation who should remain nameless, is is sometimes this difference between the person that leads the organisation and how they see the world, what is their strategic vision, and the people that are diligently working for them, you know, achieving objectives, working to meet deadlines and things like that. But to what extent do they share the same strategic picture? Okay? And there is some research that says, well, and this might be the top right, you know, yeah, and both perspective, well, if they shared that strategic picture in the same way that you see the strategic picture? There’s a lot of pictures going on here that might allow a conversation. That is, it’s not either or it’s not, well, you have to be the MD and they have to be the minions. And being deliberately, yeah, of course, provocative here. Where’s the and both, okay, where’s the and both, yes, and that you could be uber and both as MD, as in, yeah, you still will have to be involved in winning some work. And you will have to be involved in, you know, plans, strategic direction, etc, but can they also engage in and both, that would be one of the questions. Well,
Richard Anderson 56:56
yeah, yes, I would, I would, I would say that the team absolutely, you know, it’s funny. It’s not something I’ve given much consideration to. But now that you say that, and you talk it through, it makes, it makes a lot of sense, I would think, yes, absolutely, you know, we’ve got, we’ve got a great team at the business. We’ve got very loyal staff who’ve been there for a long time and always kind of been behind, behind that, that vision. But yeah, absolutely, did
Robert Bolton 57:22
you find yourself? Oh, it may be that that everything is just swimmingly hunky dory, but do you find also find yourself? You know, there’s certain things that worry you, and you shield them from that
Richard Anderson 57:41
definitely. I mean, candidly, the things that used to worry me don’t worry me quite as much anymore, now that we’re part of a bigger group. But there was, you know, times in the past where I would get horrendously concerned and ruminate over weekends, about the bank balance, and, you know, when was the next client coming in, and all that, although you pay the wages, and ultimately that was the concern, you know, I’m going to pay the wages. Are we going to, you know, have a business that that continues, and all of that sort of stuff that, of course, I would have shielded, because, you know, I’ve always been big on transparency, but I think there’s a difference between transparency and worry in the founder’s head. Because, you know, there’s 345, months worth of wages in the bank. You know, that’s that’s fine. You know, you’re working on a couple of months sales cycle, and that will be topped up. But for me, it was the catastrophizing and all of that sort of stuff that I would keep to me selfish.
Robert Bolton 58:42
Did the other thing I’d be interested in exploring is the this being part of a group. Why did the group want to include your business. What was the thinking behind that?
Richard Anderson 59:05
There’s probably a couple of, a couple of different things, and we were a profitable business. We’ve, we’ve, we’ve had, you know, decent year on year growth since inception. That’s going to be part of it, ultimately, in a business transaction, in the business decision. And I think, you know, the the other, the other sides would be the technology. So we’ve built, I would like to think, some very innovative technology in the space in which we operate. So I think those two things combined, as well as the fact that, you know, we’ve got, as I previously mentioned, a really loyal, knowledgeable team, I think, and it was aligned to their vision and their strategy with the other business units, as we call them, which is obviously the other companies that sit within the group. I think there’s a good strategic alignment to those. So a few different reasons. So
Robert Bolton 59:52
with my grid head on, yeah, not only would I be looking at where the i. And both box applies not only to you, but the people that work for you. You know that mdness, yeah, and entrepreneurship, I’d be wondering, to what extent is the the group, the wider group, providing me with what it could provide me, not only not what it is providing me, but what it could
Richard Anderson 1:00:30
provide me, yeah, of course,
Robert Bolton 1:00:34
and with entrepreneurship as well, to what extent are they providing leads to you, yeah. How well, is that an informal, occasional thing? Is it a disciplined process? Yeah, I don’t need you to answer.
Richard Anderson 1:00:48
Of course. That’s the things that you’d be thinking about when you were going through this. Yeah,
Robert Bolton 1:00:53
yeah, and, and, and then you could, what you could do is, is probably it would take longer than this, this call, but you could then start to look at, okay, well, let’s make it a much different description of of both the x axis and the Y axis. You know. Let’s take a perspective, which is what you know, what if we, I don’t know, outsourced going and getting business. What if we? That’s probably a silly thing, but I’m kind of coming at this from a perspective of really questioning the legitimacy of the x axis and the Y axis. And can you come at it from a hugely right brain perspective, as in left field, yeah, just to confuse the left left field. Right brain
Richard Anderson 1:02:06
got you, yeah? I mean, yeah,
Robert Bolton 1:02:09
that could be a workshop, or it could be, you know, with just a few people that you Yes, yeah, you’d like that conversation with. It doesn’t have to be with
Richard Anderson 1:02:21
everyone. No, of course. I mean, it’s such interesting stuff. I mean, the right brain stuff with these boxes is, I mean, it’s, obviously, it’s really innovative. I love what you’ve you’ve written, and I think, you know, even just talking, talking through, which is there, it gives so much food for thought. On, on, on, on these, on these challenges.
Robert Bolton 1:02:46
There’s another, just a little bit of advice. It’s not the same. It is not the same. But I remember when I became partner at KPMG and that that is a, you know, so kind of crossing the Rubicon. It’s a right of pass, yes. And when I was on what’s called the partner track, you know, one of the things that a partner said to me, he said, Look, you know, be a partner now and then they will confer partnership on you, yeah, don’t, don’t have in your head. Well, I’m, I’m learning to be a partner. I’m a trainee partner. He’s kind of like, you know, you have to live and breathe, yeah, being that partner, yes. And partnership will follow interesting, yeah. And I’m wondering whether there’s a similarity with you in in, in this, be in that top right and both box where the appropriate level of entrepreneurship is coming from you. You’re not doing it all. Yeah, you’re not taking on the problems of the world on your shoulder. But equally also, you’ve, you’ve you’ve scaled up in such a way that you’re not chasing your tail on all of the operational stuff. You might have delegated some of it. You might have automated some of it. You might you might have kicked some of it up into group, yes, and to to imagine what it’s what that world looks like before you’ve achieved it,
Richard Anderson 1:04:44
yeah, yeah. And act, act like that, yeah, yeah, brilliant. Well, that’s honestly Robert really, really useful advice, hugely appreciated. I can’t believe we’ve been. Speaking over an hour. I’ve enjoyed this conversation so, so much. I know it’s, it’s, it’s, honestly, it’s been, it’s been brilliant, I wondered. And you know, we’re going to have listeners, no doubt that are going to be very keen to learn more and potentially buy the book. Hopefully, we we get some people do that. Would you be happy to tell people where they can get it. And of course, if it’s the usual places, we will provide links as part of this podcast upload. But yeah, where, where can they find it? And
Robert Bolton 1:05:30
so it’s on Amazon, and it’s breaking open the boxes, and it’s Monroe and Bolton, and I think you’ve got the link, or
Richard Anderson 1:05:43
you I have I’ve got the link, for sure. My
Robert Bolton 1:05:47
email is also in the introduction to us, Andrew Munro and myself, at the front end of the book. So that sort of people want to email me, they need to buy the book.
Richard Anderson 1:06:04
Sounds good to me. Yeah, I think
Robert Bolton 1:06:07
they don’t. But, you know, I’d like them to No,
Richard Anderson 1:06:10
of course, as we all would, and I, for one, can hugely recommend it. And it’s honestly, it’s really struck a chord with me, and as of the conversations that we’ve had over the last few weeks. What’s next? Robert, you more books on more books on the horizon. Yeah.
Robert Bolton 1:06:25
So, you know, and Andrew and I have a kind of a bit of a quirky view of the world. To some extent, we love, we love our tools, yeah, and we, we, we love to simplify the world. But we also love to and, you know, understand its richness, yes, and that has led us surprise to surprise to Venn diagrams, right? Yeah, yes, we have a series of books in the pipeline, some of which not written yet, where we’re exploring topics I’ve, I’ve written a first draft of a book on politics so very, you Know, very different, yeah, which explores things like truth, lies narrative. Those are three circles of a Venn diagram, yes. And the thing about a Venn diagram, it’s the overlaps. It’s the overlaps that are so critical, of course, yeah. So there’s a book on on on that, but what Andrew and I are working on is, is a book on business and leadership, again, using the vehicle of Venn diagrams, and we’re limiting ourselves to three circle Venn diagrams, but we’re exploring all sorts of topics, like,
Robert Bolton 1:08:12
as a again, we’re starting with questions. In all instances, it’s questions, you know, do trying to remember one of the questions, do we know what strategy is? Is, you know, because one of the things about leadership and management and running organisations is sometimes we confuse strategy for plans, for example. And so we have a three circle Venn diagram about, about that. Yes, we have a three circle Venn diagram about where, where does the performance of this business come from? What, you know, What? What? What drives this business, and there we explore things like causality and purpose and nice, yeah, we’ve got these Venn diagrams. Andrew is working on some. I’m working on some. And we’ve got some really other interesting books. So one of them is about relationships. Andrew is majoring on that, yeah, it so they’re not, they’re not all from a perspective of business and organisation. The first one will be, which is the Business and Leadership one, yeah, some of them branch off in different areas, like politics, etc. And I, since retiring, you know, I’ve filled my time with two things that have become passions, the writing thing, yeah, that’s what we’ve been talking about here. But photography, yes, and particularly. Kind of minimalist outdoor photography, and that’s led me to, you know, I travelled a hell of a lot as a management consultant, but now I travel a hell of a lot as a
Richard Anderson 1:10:13
photographer, another world through two different lenses. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And
Robert Bolton 1:10:20
it, you know, I, I’m not trying to make money out of photography, although some of my images do sell. Yeah, I think if I sought to make money out of photography, it might destroy the passion that I have for it, yeah, but I love it, and you’ve
Richard Anderson 1:10:40
got, you’ve got a webPsyched for you as well, and we will, I’m very happy to link that if you’d like me to as well.
Robert Bolton 1:10:47
Quiet landscapes.net,
Richard Anderson 1:10:50
brilliant. Yeah, we’ll link it as part of the as part of the podcast. So so yes, lots going on and books being written as we speak. I’m looking forward to those being released, giving them a read and perhaps having another conversation as and when the time comes. But Robert, yeah, fantastic. Really, really enjoyed chatting to you. Thanks ever so much for making some time. I know that the audience would have really enjoyed this one. And Robert Boughton, thank you very much for joining Psyched for Business.
Robert Bolton 1:11:24
Thank you. Thank you, Richard and good luck with with how you might have to head.
Voiceover 1:11:32
Thanks for listening to Psyched for Business, for show notes, resources and more. Visit evolveassess.com